What Is the Fair Tax Act Explained – Pros and Cons

fair tax signAfter the first time trying to prepare and file personal taxes, most Americans learn the same lesson: The American tax system is complex and difficult to understand. Many people also feel that corporations, wealthy individuals and families, and special interest groups have unfair access to loopholes and exemptions that help them avoid paying their “fair share.”

One system that has gained a following in recent years is called the Fair Tax Plan. Simply put, this plan would replace the federal income tax system with a flat national sales tax. Proponents believe this initiative would eliminate loopholes, evenly spread the tax burden, and eliminate hassle without diminishing federal tax revenues.

Opinions vary widely, however, and opponents contend that the Fair Tax Plan would require the middle class to pay the most in taxes, while the wealthy would enjoy an even lighter tax burden.

To figure out where you stand on this high-profile issue, get the facts, weigh the pros and cons, and draw your own personal conclusions.

What Is the Fair Tax Plan?

The Fair Tax Act (HR 25, S 13) legislation proposes that the federal government stop collecting many different types of income tax, including:

Instead, the government would generate tax revenue by instituting a national sales tax on most purchased items. Businesses would collect the tax at the point of sale and send the revenue to the federal government. The IRS would become obsolete, and your net income would no longer have anything to do with how many exemptions you can claim. Instead, your paycheck would simply be exactly how much money you make: tax-free.

Moreover, related legislation would repeal the Sixteenth Amendment, which means the federal government would no longer have the right to levy income taxes. States and local governments, however, would still be able to collect revenue via income and sales taxes at their discretion.

How the Sales Tax Would Work

The proposed sales tax would amount to 23% of the total payment on just about all purchases. Sounds like you’d simply pay a 23% sales tax, right? Not quite. Basically, this works out to be a 30% sales tax rate, because you wouldn’t pay the tax at the register, like you do now.

For example, an item marked $100 would already include the sales tax within it – in this case, $23. This is called an inclusive tax. In other words, the cost of the item without the tax would be $77. But $23 paid on a $77 purchase is roughly 30%, the way we’re used to calculating it. While 30% is steep, you’d be working with a much larger paycheck, because no federal tax would have been withheld.

Further, the Fair Tax plan attempts to solve the issue of double-taxation. Currently, businesses must pay sales tax on the materials they use to create the goods they sell, which then get taxed again. In effect, the same material gets taxed twice. But under the proposed legislation, items purchased directly by businesses could avoid the sales tax and thereby avoid being double-taxed. This should bring the wholesale cost of your purchase down, and, in theory, it should reduce the retail price as well.

Lastly, used items would not be subject to the federal sales tax.

The Prebate

The prebate – or “annual consumption allowance” – is designed in part to relieve poverty-level Americans by providing a monthly check that would essentially offset all of their sales tax expenditures. The amount of the allowance would be based on poverty-level guidelines and would increase for larger families.

Though the prebate is geared toward poorer families, everyone would receive monthly checks, regardless of income. The prebate brings up yet another point of contention between critics and supporters. It is the most expensive element of the entire plan, would be the largest entitlement program in American history, and would constitute a welfare payment, even for those without a need. In other words, a two-parent billionaire household with two kids would receive the same monthly prebate as a two-parent, two-child household struggling to get by on $20,000 per year.

fairtax collection is done at the point of sale


The Fair Tax Plan may be advantageous in the following ways:

  1. Favoring High Income Earners. Currently, our tax system is based on tax brackets: The more you make, the more you pay in taxes. Under the Fair Tax plan, only the amount of income you spend gets taxed. Someone who makes $200,000 and spends $100,000, for example, would pay only 11.5% of their income to taxes.
  2. Helping Investments. Because the capital gains tax would be eliminated, individuals who can afford to invest will enjoy tax-free compound growth. This would be similar to having an IRA in which you could invest as much as you want and withdraw funds at any time without taxes or penalties. (Under current legislation, you can only invest a certain amount per year and must be 59 1/2 to withdraw funds without penalty.)
  3. Making Tax Revenues Easier to Predict. Because consumption rates have been much more stable than incomes, figuring out tax revenues will likely be simpler, and estimates will be more accurate.
  4. Benefiting Businesses. Along with eliminating double-taxation, the proposed plan would get rid of payroll taxes and taxes on capital and investments. This change could substantially benefit businesses and buyers, because prices could fall due to increased spending power and lower production costs.
  5. Requiring More Disciplined Spending Habits. It’s apparent from the rampant use of credit cards and the mortgage debt crisis that our country has become far too dependent on credit. The Fair Tax would put an end to this problem, since the more you spend, the more you pay. Moreover, people would likely be inclined to pay off their debt, rather than spend more, since money that goes to credit card bills won’t be taxed.
  6. Eliminating Tax Administration and Filing. Simply put, you’d no longer need to file taxes, and the IRS would close up shop.
  7. Providing Prebates. The monthly check would help offset some portion of every household’s sales tax payments, especially for families near and below the poverty line.


Scratch the surface of this plan and it falls apart, at least for many of us. Even if forward-looking economists can argue the potential long-term benefits, they don’t appear to be big enough or sure enough to offset the near-term havoc that would be wreaked upon the middle class should such a plan go through.

Major concerns include:

  1. Penalizing the Lower and Middle Classes. Individuals and families that are above poverty level and considered middle-class will bear the brunt of the tax burden for the country. This is a progressive tax, which means that the wealthy pay more and the poor and middle class pay less as a percentage of their income. This expectation will only come true, however, if individuals spend 100% of their incomes on taxable expenditures. Taxpayers – especially wealthier citizens – are not likely to choose to live paycheck-to-paycheck. The wealthy won’t likely trade investing for spending anytime soon, so this plan would indeed be regressive – meaning those with less money will end up paying a higher percentage of their income in taxes.
  2. Increasing Potential for Tax Evasion. Such a high sales tax rate would undoubtedly lead many to evade the tax, possibly through trade and purchasing goods in other countries.
  3. Decreasing Overall Spending. Under this proposal, the best way to lower your tax burden will be to spend less. Too little spending is not good for any capitalist economy. In fact, while many current tax incentives are specifically created to drive consumer spending, the large sales tax could discourage consumers from spending freely, thus hurting the economy.
  4. Eliminating Tax Deductions and Credits. Many people derive significant benefit from common personal tax deductions, such as the home mortgage interest deduction, the child and dependent care credit, education credits and deductions, and the earned income tax credit – not to mention the ability to deduct medical bills and expenses and student loan interest. The cost of home ownership, then, could significantly rise for homeowners who currently itemize and have large interest payments. Renting would become even more appealing, and an already ailing real estate market could be devastated.
  5. Making State Income a Bigger Burden. Though federal income tax would go away, state income tax would remain, and of course it would no longer be deductible against federal taxes. The effect would be a great burden on residents of high income tax states like California. Moreover, unless you live in a sales tax free state, like Oregon or New Hampshire, you could pay your state’s sales tax on top of the Fair Tax and on top of your state’s income tax. For a family living in Los Angeles making $100,000, this would be well over 40%!
  6. Depending Too Much on Spending. Paradoxically, this tax is dependent on spending, but at the same time discourages it. Plus, since many wealthy individuals already invest on their own and in other businesses, they may be further motivated to do so. Those moves could benefit the economy overall, but since these activities would be non-taxable, the national burden shifts to the lower economic classes.
  7. Increasing Costs for Immigrants. The prebate check system will not include non-citizens, significantly raising the cost of living, especially for lower-income immigrants, permanent residence (“green”) cardholders, and visa holders. It could also deter highly educated foreign workers with great careers, such as doctors, engineers, and technology sector workers, from immigrating.

determine what the fairtax would mean for you

The Fair Tax Act and Inclusive Taxation

The Fair Tax Act may attempt to improve the current system, which favors the wealthy with loopholes and big deductions, by replacing it with a more equitable system of taxation. However, this may not be the case. While the downsides are troubling, what is most disturbing is how advocates present the plan.

First, let’s quickly review the current sales tax and what the change would mean. Everyone in this country is accustomed to paying what’s called an “exclusive tax” on their purchases. This means we see how much an item costs and then calculate the tax on top of that price. In fact, until I read about the Fair Tax Act, I didn’t know there was any other way to pay sales tax.

Since this is the crux of the Fair Tax plan, it’s worth addressing again. If you purchase an item for $100 that has a 23% tax, you would expect to pay $123 total. This would be an exclusive tax. However, the Fair Tax plan calculates their tax as inclusive. In other words, your $100 purchase already incorporates $77 for how much the item costs and $23 for the actual tax. But a $23 tax on a $77 purchase comes out to 30% the way we currently measure it.

In explaining the plan, it seems that Fair Tax proponents call it a 23% tax so the plan sounds better. And this makes me wonder, what else are they spinning, and why do they misrepresent a crucial aspect of their plan in the first place? If the people vetting the tax plan don’t understand why it’s misleading to talk about an inclusive sales tax, then I suspect other aspects of the plan will be misleading and possibly flawed as well.

On the other hand, if the ruse is intentional (which seems like the rational explanation), what else are they trying to sneak past us, and why? As if the length of the list of cons isn’t enough, this simple bit leads me to suspect that the Fair Tax is anything but fair, and that it’s just another ploy to get the rest of us to pad the pockets of the upper and corporate classes.

What Does It Mean for You?

The Fair Tax is gaining traction because many people feel that our current system of taxation is unfair. But though it claims otherwise, this plan is no different.

Consider that many families can currently get their effective federal tax rate down far below 23%. I have a five-person family: two adults and three children. Our effective tax rate was 8.91% last year, and while we aren’t near poverty level, we are not considered remotely wealthy. Of course, we have a mortgage and private mortgage insurance, plus one child in college, two in elementary school, and plenty of student loan interest. In other words, we have a lot of deductions to lose if the Fair Tax goes through.

Take a look at your tax return to find your effective tax rate. If you use a service like TurboTax or H&R Block, it should be listed on the first page. How much more (or less) would you pay under the Fair Tax plan? If you don’t have children or a mortgage and you have a good salary, your tax rate may be fairly high. But do you ever plan to have a mortgage or children? And how do you feel about the middle class taking the brunt of this tax plan to keep the country solvent – regardless of whether or not you’re in that class yourself?

Take this into account and think about how much more or less you’d pay when deciding whether or not you think the Fair Tax is truly fair.

Final Word

A lot of us are looking for change – the kind of change that will bring our country back to its glory days, or at least give more of us a fair shake at being comfortable and successful. And because of that, it can be easy to believe whatever our favorite politician says without properly evaluating the facts. It’s happened to me and I’ve been sourly disappointed.

As responsible citizens, we need to examine the facts of the Fair Tax ourselves. One place to start is to look at who’s sponsoring the bill. What’s their history and what have they supported in the past? This can give you an idea of their motivations and who they really serve – the people or special interests. Just don’t take my word for it or anyone else’s. The best way to create a truly equitable system of taxation is to demand hard facts over catchy soundbites and empty promises.

What are your thoughts on the current system of taxation? Do you think the Fair Tax will effectively address these problems?

  • http://enoughwealth.blogspot.com Ralph

    We sort of got half of this in Australia when we got the GST (goods & services tax) – similar to the UK VAT, or your state sales taxes.

    Our rate got set at 10%, not 23%, so our income tax rates only got cut, not eliminated, the tax free threshold raised, and state stamp duties eliminated (eventually).

    To get the legislation passed some items had to be exempt – eg. basic (unprocessed) food, water. Which meant it didn’t raise as much revenue as originaly intended.

    In practice it seems to not be as progressive as most people had imagined – poor people tend to spend more of their income on taxable items (junk food, beer, cigarettes etc), while rich people spend a smaller percentage of their income on taxable items (wine, caviar, sports cars) and can save/invest more – which isn’t taxed until it eventually spent.

    It was also supposed to help stamp out the “black” economy, but instead there has been a proliferation of “cash in hand” deals and bartering to avoid paying the GST.

    • Keith Reynolds

      The fairtax only similarity is that it is a consumption tax. But though the lens of consumption even an income tax looks like a convoluted tax on consuming domestic made products.

      The Fairtax covers the taxes that is spent on basics necessities with the prebate so there is no need for exemptions. The fairtax has a broader tax base by taxing consumption of all new products and services to raise the necessary revenue. The prebate is beautiful this way every family is treated the same. poverty level spending inclined food and housing. The fairtax is progressive on spending.

      There will always be people that try to cheat taxes but lets look at the risk / benefits of tax cheating as we switch to the Fairtax.

      In order to make a clear comparison on tax evasion issues between the fairtax and our present taxes, I will quote the fairtax inclusively as is the income tax.

      America’s 15% self employment tax, is really nothing more then the combined value of both the employer payed and employee payed payroll taxes. A proprietor who falls into a 8% income tax bracket has a total tax liability of 23% of his income. Most proprietors tax liability is well above 23%. The fairtax is 23% of consumption. The rate doesn’t indicate that there would be more or less tax cheating to a proprietor that would be classified into an 8% income tax + 15% self employment tax.

      The unregistered self employed individual pays the fairtax in his purchase of supplies and tools. The fairtax will be partially embedded in the cost to the tax cheater’s consumers, resulting in less of a negative impact on revenue to the Treasury, and decreases the rewards for tax cheating. Further more a system of fines and rewards will help keep unregistered tax cheats down. Looking at the risk and benefits there will probably be fewer unregistered tax cheats.

      The registered self employed individual supplies his tax payer identification number in order to purchase equipment and supplies as an intermediate sale, (no tax levied). Just as an audit under the income tax catches tax cheats, so will it be under the fairtax. With the fairtax, there will be 86% fewer tax filers and the audits can be done much more efficiently. Policing under the fairtax is much easer. The risk of tax evasion to registered businesses increases while the reward is no better then it was with the income tax.

      • Terry Pratt

        Re: “The Fairtax covers the taxes that is spent on basics necessities with the prebate so there is no need for exemptions.”

        Um, the prebate DOES NOT “cover the taxes that is spent on basics necessities”

        This will take some explaining, but the short answer is that the poor have a much different spending profile than the middle class and the rich, and their spending profile causes them to pay more tax than the prebate would give them.

        Specifically, most poor renters spend at least half their income on rent, and all of this rent is taxed. The problem is that rent is a service, not a good, and rents will not fall the same way prices of goods will fall.

        Because rental property currently enjoys favorable treatment under the income tax, there is little income tax embedded in rent. There is a great deal of property tax embedded in rent, and property taxes are not affected by FairTax.

        Therefore, landlords won’t enjoy huge cost reductions under the FairTax, and post-tax rents will rise substantially.

        All those poor renters spending half their income on rent will pay more in FairTax than they will receive from the prebate. Therefore, their spending and consumption MUST FALL.

        • wjones4iv

          If I am understanding this corrctly, you are claiming the prebate will not cover the basics for poor renters. How much will the prebate be? I have not read anywhere how much the prebate will be and before I can make an informed decision I need to know that information. I am assuming you know how much the prebate will be under the faor tax plan because you seem adamant about it not being enough to cover the basics for those renting. Another piece of information needed is will the prebate differ depending on your market? Will I get more if I live in NYC versus living in a lower economic area of the USA?

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Henry-Salo/1394713777 Henry Salo

          The orebate will be $209 a month, single person, $418 a month, married couple and children $76 per child. Not enough to cover basic necessities.

        • Tracy A. Goode

          Prebate is $220 for a single person, $440 per couple, $76 per child–and you pay NO taxes until you SPEND more than $27,000 if you are a two parent household with one child. Much better than the 13% hidden taxes you pay right now.

        • Henry Salo

          The so called prebate is nothing but an entitlement which will cost between $400 billion to $700 billion a year to process and handle. This will be the largest entitlement ever. Eliminate the prebate and lower the tax rate.

        • Tracy A. Goode

          If it’s an entitlement, it’s one that is available to ALL LEGAL RESIDENTS, rather than a select few. Do you think that the deductions you get now for yourself, your wife, your children are not entitlements, too? That is what the Prebate is–it is a deduction–the ONLY deduction allowed under the Fair Tax–and is given to everyone regardless of their income. What can be more fair than that?

        • Henry Salo

          Tracy, you are a complete fool when you wrote that what can be more fair than that. Look at the people who will get this prebate. Anyone with legal S.S. numbers will get a prebate. From Bill Gates to the poorest person will get a prebate. Drug dealers, criminals who are out, gang members, hookers or whatever will get a prebate whether they buy something or not. A deduction is set on the tax rate of your income if you have a family while a prebate is sent out whether you need it or not. It’s an entitlement. A total waste. Guys like Bill Gates or other billionaires don’t need a prebate. And you call that fair? It’s a laugh.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Henry-Salo/1394713777 Henry Salo

          I misspelled prebate with orebate.

    • Terry Pratt

      Question (for all readers outside USA): does your VAT apply to rent…do renters pay VAT to their landlords?

  • Jacquelyn Hart-McCoy

    I have thought about this a lot and I think it is probably a good idea. I have no idea why some people think it won’t help the poor. It would absolutely help the poor! They would have more money for things they need like food! (Which is not taxed.) and Housing! (also not taxed if you are a renter)
    My one big concern is what you said about it slowing the economy. It may, or it may not but I do know my spending habits would remain the same. I buy things when I need them, and that’s that. Whether they are going to have a huge tax associated with them or not.

    Thanks for bringing up this important topic.

    • Terry Pratt

      Under the FairTax, food and rent are definitely taxed. Wherever did you get the idea that they are not?

      • Tracy A. Goode

        They are effectively untaxed–based on how much you spend and what you buy. Untaxing food altogether would not be fair; someone with $100,000 a year can afford more expensive foods like steaks, while someone with $10,000 is stuck with hotdogs. That the person with $100,000 a year may buy hotdogs to save money is a purchasing choice–something the Fair Tax allows us to do.

  • Keith Reynolds

    Re cons
    “It could discourage the country to spend, which ultimately hurts the economy. ”

    Switching to the fairtax will cause an increase in consumption of American made products hear and outside our borders

    “It has not been proven that the fair tax would supplement the current tax system dollar for dollar”

    People opposed to the fair tax worry that it will not benefit the poor.
    That would be like saying the income tax helps the poor which it certainly does not.. Instead they are raped blind by politicians with hidden cost of corporate taxes, employer payed portion of payroll, self employment tax and other taxes that consumers of American goods pay. And don’t forget very regressive employee payed payroll taxes against their income. Switching to the fairtax completely untaxes their poverty level spending

    • Terry Pratt

      A lot of people (esp conservatives) complain that the poor currently get millions of dollars in “free” money through the Earned Income Tax Credit. The EITC certainly does benefit the working poor. Under FairTax, the EITC disappears, and virtually all their income becomes subject to a national sales tax (the poor spend nearly all their income on items (like food and rent) which are taxable under the FairTax.

      Since most poor Americans spend at least half their income on rent, and rents will rise substantially under the FairTax (the largest tax embedded in rents is the property tax, which is unaffected by FairTax), the prebate will be insufficient to cover their increased costs, and their spending and consumption will necessarily fall.

      It would be great is someone could explain how the FairTax benefits the poor and near-poor who cannot buy a home and therefore must rent.

      • Tracy A. Goode

        Under the Fair Tax, just like every other legal resident, the Poor are eligible for the Prebate up to the Poverty Level for their family size. This actually DROPS the amount they pay in rent as a percentage of their income. If you have a family of 3, Single mother with two children, spending $19,000 a year, the Prebate is $374 a month, or $4,420 a year (One person @$220, with 2 children @$67/ea.). If that mother is currently making $19,0000, she pays, with deductions, nothing right now–except that she pays the payroll taxes and compliance costs of every company that helps produce the box of twinkies she buys, and thus actually pays about 14%. That means, of her $19,000, she actually has only around $16,500 real purchase power. Under the Fair Tax, of her $19,000, she pays no taxes. She would actually have to SPEND another $500, roughly, to pay ANY taxes. That’s a difference of $2,500 from the current system–allowing her more money for her rent. Add to that that she could SAVE that money and eventually become a home OWNER–and it’s a win/win situation.

  • marylandterps

    The Fair Tax would raise the costs of good about 33%. If that is not bad enough, there is no guarantee that the Federal Government would not later impose the income tax again (when they wanted more money). Then we would be taxed twice. Collecting this tax would also be a nightmare, the retailer would have to deal with this & probably raise prices b/c of this.

    The real solution is to shrink the size of government & to impose strict controls on its future growth.

    • Erik

      maryland, you need to research the fair tax more, because it would not raise the price 33%.

      When you buy something right now, there is already about 23% worth of taxes built into that price from the taxes that retailers, distributors, and manufacturers have to pay to get that product to you.

      if you eliminate all of those taxes, companies will be forced to lower their prices due to the law of free market economics. One company will find a competitive edge by lowering their prices and the others will follow suit. They won’t collude, because there’s so much incentive for the company with the weaker market share to lower their price if it’s costing them 23% less to deliver that product.

      You do have a good point about the federal government still passing an income tax later on down the road. But, we as citizens would have to make sure this didn’t happen. We are the ones that elect gov’t officials, so we would have to put in place those that believe in what is working. Plus, if the fair tax DID work well and everyone was liking the fact that they never have to deal with the IRS again, then no sane politician would vote for another income tax.

      • Hank Van Gieson


        While I agree with you that retail prices probably won’t rise by 33%, you need to understand that if we all get 100% of our gross pay/pensions, then the best businesses can do by eliminating business tax related costs is around 10%. Remove 10% and add 23%, (not 23%), and retail prices will rise by 17% on average.

        • Keehead

          Erik is right. Molly is forgetting two very important advantages of the FairTax.

          First, she leaves off the taxes that are already in the prices of the products we buy. No corporation worth its salt excludes the taxes it will have to pay into the cost of the product they are selling. Corporations pay a 35% tax rate in the U.S. (one of the highest in the world). Since they know what they’re doing, they pass that tax on to those who buy their products. For example, if I want to make 30% profit on an item, I must add 35% of that profit on to my cost since that will go to taxes. All businesses do this. Corporations don’t pay any taxes – ever. They just make sure to collect them from their customers. The Fair Tax eliminates corporate taxes, therefore the prices of goods (thanks to competition) will actually drop, reducing everyone’s tax burden.

          Second, dropping the corporate tax will create an incredible amount of foreign investment into the U.S. market. We will basically become a tax haven for corporations like the Bahamas or Monaco are today. These investments will bring jobs and money into our economy, money that will be spent in thousands of ways, thus increasing our tax revenue beyond anything we could imagine today. In fact, I predict this would cause such a surplus in our federal budget that we would quickly pay off our total debt, then have to lower the fair tax when the government coffers start overflowing.

          The FairTax is a no brainer, just based on these two massive arguments.

    • Concerned Citizen

      Well don’t think for a moment the government couldn’t keep the same tax system and add value added tax to sales anyway. It think we need flat tax for everyone.And I am by no means rich.By most standards I’m some where between poverty and middle class.

  • pharmboy

    I’m all for repealing the 16th and enacting the FairTax.

    Taxes do two things. They generate revenue and they affect behavior. The federal income tax generates billions in tax revenue but does it at the expense of discouraging work.

    I’m an example of this. Thanks to the highly compensated employee clause of the IRS’s 401(k) regulations, I purposely asked my boss to let me only work 36 hours per week so that my pay would drop and I could pay less in taxes by investing the full 15.5K in my 401(k). I chose to work less because of our tax system.

    The FairTax would stop punishing the most productive Americans and it would save us billions in wasted time filing taxes in the atrocity of a tax code that we currently use.

    • Erik

      I couldn’t have said it better pharmboy. it discourages people to work more, because working more for hourly workers means they’ll be put into a higher tax bracket.

      We spend BILLIONS every year spending money to file our taxes, and it can all be changed by heavily taxing spending, rather than productivity.

      Also, for those of you who haven’t researched the fair tax, it would send you a pre-bate every month to reimburse you for taxes you incur for necessities such as food and household goods.

  • MJS

    How does the US match up with other countries when it comes to taxing? Are other countries taxing like the FairTax or how we traditionally have been taxed? Not that that would be the decision maker but I’m just curious.

    • Hank Van Gieson


      Over 130 nations worldwide use a VAT which is another form of a consumption tax. The only difference between the Fairtax and a VAT is that the Vat is collected in small chunks at each level of production, while the Fairtax is collected all at once at the retail cash register. Both collect the same amount of revenue at the same rate. Experience shows that a VAT will likely have significantly lower evasion due to the “self policing” nature of the collection process. It is a mystery to me why we are the last developed country not to have a VAT. Could it be the NIH factor?

  • Farmer

    I am heavily in favor of the FairTax – it is a comprehensive tax reform bill that not only will fix the IRS, but stimulate our dying economy!

    • Terry Pratt

      Is the FairTax fair to people who cannot buy a home and who therefore must rent?

      • Tracy A. Goode

        Yes. With the Prebate, un-taxing families up to the Poverty level for their family size, rent actually in many cases becomes lower, allowing renters more options in where they live. Add to that the ability to SAVE more, and more Renters may find themselves able to buy their home.

  • Ken Faulkenberry

    I think your analysis of the Fair Tax is unfair. Yes, if you have gamed the system by using all the loopholes now in the system you can get your tax rate very low. But is this fair? Why should some pay less taxes because they borrowed money for a better home, or have children, etc. The Fair Tax would end this gaming of the system by eliminating loopholes and treating everyone the same. It will remove the disincentives to produce income and create jobs! Our current tax system rewards debt and discourages production. How dumb is that?

    • http://www.moneycrashers.com Holly

      Ken, it’s not gaming the system when you use legitimate deductions and credits. These credits and deductions, by the way, have helped my middle class family live in a decent home, have helped me to afford a college education for my stepson and daycare for my children so I can work. Those are hardly disincentives to produce income and create jobs.

      • Ken Faulkenberry

        Holly, I apologize if I used the wrong term. I wasn’t trying to make it personal. Everyone should try to pay the lowest tax possible. My point is the system is unfair. If one person is getting a tax deductions because they borrowed more money than another person who paid cash; that is unfair and partially caused the latest bubble in housing. People leveraged and were given incentives to do so by the tax code. Meanwhile the person who was frugal with their money and paid cash has to pay a higher income tax to subsidize those who borrowed heavily to buy the same home. That is fundamentally unfair! Why should I have to subsidize someone elses daycare, or college education, or better home than I can afford just because I don’t borrow the money?

        • http://www.moneycrashers.com Holly

          No worries. Different points of view are what keep the conversation alive and inspired to find the best solutions for all. And you’re right, the current system isn’t fair – we agree there. :)

      • Cuddly_25179181

        I hope this doesn’t come off condescending but here goes..

        Your home, do your fellow tax payers stop by and spend the night? people youve never met? – no? why should their tax dollars assist buying your home?

        Did other tax payers FORCE you in anyway to have children? no? why should their tax dollars go to assist supporting them?

        Its not that I personally don’t care, I just feel its very unfair that for the responsible people (not saying you arent/werent) that build careers, stay single, make sacrafices to progress their career etc are typically the hardest taxed because they dont have ‘Loop holes’ because they were fiscally responsible and independant…

        Besidies for the ‘working poor’

        you get alot if not all of that money back every month…basically making you untaxed as its returned to you.

        Don’t like renting? well your money isnt getting taxed unless you spend it…save it, buy that used home, see how much youd save monthly on taxes and start saving that in a seperate pot for home improvements? or guess what a nicer home?

      • Yauy

        I believe it was the productivity of the individuals in your middle class family that gave them a decent home, etc…

        The native extreme unfairness of the current tax system is what produced all the necesity for excemptions, deductions and credits. Otherwise the people would have revolted against the system; as some allready have.

        • http://www.facebook.com/chuck.kill Chuck Kill

          People who have paid into the Social Security system and private savings accounts for retirement will be effectively double taxed when they begin withdrawing their money and spending it, because all the money that they have managed to save up has already been taxed by the present tax system
          The fair tax will NEVER pass unless Congress protects all savings that have been previously taxes. Why should everyone who have saved their money get taxed twice, when those who spent their money do not.

        • Yauy

          THE REBATE, remember. And maybe yes, a provision could be made to not double tax existing savings.

        • Tracy A. Goode

          People who have paid into Soc. Security are ALREADY being retaxed on it. From the Fair Tax website:

          “Are seniors taxed twice on savings, once when they saved it, and now again when they spend it?

          Simply put, the FairTax is a revenue-neutral proposal, raising no more money than does the current system. The FairTax only changes where the money is raised, not the amount.

          Additionally, some erroneously believe that people who have invested in Roth IRAs will never pay taxes on this money again. They may not know it, but they are paying corporate income taxes, employer payroll taxes, plus the associated compliance costs that are hidden in the price of every retail purchase they make. Under the FairTax, these hidden taxes
          are driven out of retail prices. And note, they can determine the amount of tax they pay through their own lifestyle choices.

          Furthermore, used goods are not taxed because they have already been taxed once — when they were new. Therefore senior citizens, like all Americans, do not lose purchasing power, but gain it instead. Moreover, the FairTax preserves the purchasing power of Social Security benefits, and seniors receive a monthly prebate so they don’t pay taxes on the
          purchase of necessities. Tax-deferred investments get a one-time windfall. Savings invested in any long-term, income-generating asset such as a stock, real estate, or a long-term bond that can’t be called, increase substantially in value. Finally, complex estate planning is an artifact of an earlier age.

      • Tracy A. Goode

        Holly, those deductions and credits are unfair to others who have worked just as hard and are unable to take advantage of them. The Fair Tax, on the other hand, allows everyone to make the choices that are best for their family. Why should I subsidize YOUR house with the mortgage deduction? Why should I, subsidize someone who is taking advantage of the Earned Income Credit–which is not available to me, my children being grown, and that I was never able to take advantage of because I made too much money–or not enough? Where is MY incentive to be productive under the current system? There is plenty of incentive under the Fair Tax, not to mention plenty of incentive to make wise buying choices.

  • Tommy Z

    I support the FairTax mainly because the income tax is that much worse. Just think, if you trade an apple for an orange with your friend at lunch, there is no capital gain and there is no tax. When you trade your time for wages, there is no capital gain…but there IS a tax. This is akin to saying we do not own our own bodies and when we trade the use of them for something else (like wages), we have a taxable gain.

    “Paradoxically, this tax is dependent on spending, but at the same time discourages it.”

    You mean like the current system we have now? All taxes discourage whatever it is that is being taxed.

  • Michael

    Having written tax policy at the state level in a former career, a few things pop out. First, sales taxes are notoriously regressive – that is, they impact poor people harder and rich people less, when compared to most other forms of taxation, and when compared to income taxes with a progressive rate structure in particular. The Fair Tax proposal would clearly result in a massive upward shift in after-tax income. This is particularly problematic at a time when income inequality is historically extremely high, and the non-elite classes are suffering the full brunt of a near Depression while elite incomes continue to soar.

    Second, the current economic slump is demand-driven. That is, there is significant existing productive capacity that is currently idle – about a trillion dollars annually by most measures. And corporate balance sheets are at an all-time high. Companies are sitting on big piles of cash that they are choosing not to invest, and productive resources that they are choosing not to ramp up, because the lack of demand makes it unlikely that such investments would produce the desired return. Under such conditions, shifting to a tax that disincentives consumption (i.e. depresses demand) is the last thing we need. And yes, sales taxes discourage consumption, by making it more expensive to spend money. The possibility that incomes would rise does not alter the way these incentives work. To those who lament that income taxes create “disincentives to produce income and create jobs,” you are missing a very basic economic concept: Income does not create jobs unless it is spent. If people make more money but simply sit on that money, no economic activity results, and no jobs are created. So income is not something that needs to be incentivized. Spending is. People need to buy cars, and airline tickets, and nice dinners out, and furniture, and all the other things that they don’t think they can afford right now. A massive sales tax on all these things is exactly NOT what the economy currently needs.

    Finally, you have to be skeptical of any proposal that has serious dishonesty built into the proposal itself. The rate for this tax is not 23%. That claim is a deliberate misrepresentation by its authors. As I mentioned, I used to write tax policy. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, speaks of sales tax rates on an “inclusive” basis. That is not just a “different way of measuring” the rate, as if tax policy professionals use two methods of measuring, each equally common. Not at all. This “inclusive” way of measuring, as far as I can tell, was invented by the advocates of this tax to make the rate look lower than it really is. What else have they misrepresented? Have they used “dynamic scoring” to project larger revenues than the tax would actually generate? How have they determined that their proposal would be revenue-neutral – a claim that seems facially implausible in light of the rates for the taxes that would supposedly be replaced? Why have pains been taken to disassociate this proposal from the Republican Party and other forces on the right, who certainly lack credibility regarding the fairness of their tax policy preferences? It’s obvious that to anyone with any political acumen that that’s where it comes from.

    • Charmazova

      why would people “sit” on their money? Sure, think more about spending becasue your taxed that way- but I really don’t think Americans have a problem with not spedning enough- we spend money we don’t have for heaven’s sake. When we have more money in our pockets under this system, I don’t see why people woudn’t spend it- the only reason people save money is to save it up to buy something. I think the pro of not spending money on credit becasue of the added cost of the tax is a great pro- our excessive use of credit in this country has driven inflation like crazy.

    • showard351

      First of all, the Fair Tax is not a sales tax. It is a consumption tax. You will never see it in the price of the goods and services that you purchase, just like you never see the income tax that the producer pays now. The Fair Tax would be included in the price by the retailer.

      Second of all, all the dollars parked off-shore now for tax reasons will come back in this country. How is that not going to help the over-all economy?

    • Tracy A. Goode

      Are you an economist? An accountant? Have you actually STUDIED the Fair Tax? Do you not understand that the Prebate makes the Fair Tax progressive? The more you spend, the more you pay?

      I have seen accountant after accountant after accountant promote the Fair Tax. It was developed by economists and studies have shown that it will produce MORE tax revenue than the current system does, since it captures the taxes of illegal activities, illegal residents, and under the table employees that are currently missed–and that people spend more when they HAVE more.

      I am skeptical of anyone who claims to have written tax policy and is not an accountant or an economist.

  • Terry Pratt

    Nobody has yet specifically noted that services would be taxed under the FairTax. This includes rent, which means that renting would become less appealing than buying an existing home – purchases of new homes would be taxed but purchases of existing homes would be exempt, while ALL rent (new or existing home) would be taxed.

    Similarly, property taxes paid directly by a homeowner would not be taxed, but property taxes embedded in rent would be taxed. So-called “imputed rent” – the equivalent rental value of an owner-occupied house – would not be taxed, thereby allowing homeowners to enjoy over a trillion dollars annually of untaxed consumption. The tax benefits of owning a home would be even greater under the FairTax than they are under the current income tax, and massive sums would be redistributed upward from renters to homeowners. (The redistribution would be upward because median renter income is below 50% of median homeowner income.) My calculations suggest that over a lifetime, a renter could pay five times more FairTax on their housing consumption than a homeowner would pay in the same home. An underclass of rent slaves – burdened by higher taxes but unable to escape them – would emerge.

    Because rental property is currently afforded favorable tax treatment, there is little income tax embedded in rents, and thus landlords would not enjoy substantial cost reductions under the FairTax. This means that there is little potential for rents to fall, therefore post-tax rents would rise substantially under the FairTax.

    Because most low-income renters spend at least half their income on shelter, rent increases under the FairTax would outweigh any cost reductions on goods purchased. Therefore, while the prebate sounds good on paper, it would be insufficient to offset actual FairTax borne by low-income renters, whose purchasing power, spending and consumption would necessarily fall..

    It would be one thing if I chose to rent – then paying the FairTax would be voluntary. But as long as I do not rent by choice, I am unwilling to pay an explicit tax penalty for the inability to buy a home.

    • http://www.moneycrashers.com Holly

      Excellent point. It’s hard to deny this tax would be extraordinarily regressive once you start taxing rent.

      • showard351

        You get to keep your whole paycheck. You get a prebate at the first of every month. Your rent will not go up. How is it not better?

      • Tracy A. Goode

        Holly, the Prebate covers that. By allowing every LEGAL resident up to the poverty level for their size family a tax advantage, paid prior, those rents come down. However, the more money you spend, the less that prebate benefits you, regardless that you are eligible for it. Granted, you would have to SPEND $4,000,000 under the Fair Tax to pay the full 23%, or be here illegally, or be a visitor, but you pay based on your choices. Could you REALLY see Warren Buffett living in a single wide trailer in order at that point to pay less taxes than his secretary? I can’t.

    • Yauy

      Here we are talking about low income renters who cannot buy a house.

      They get the benefit of the prebate.

      But, what is the entry level for a person to have enough income to buy their first house?

      Like, what is the cheapest house a person can buy?

      Of course a poor person cannot buy a midddle class house. But a person in America usually does not remain poor for ever. Through hard work, study and perseverance Americans usuallly improve their lot.

      I’ve seen poor people living in used trailer homes. They would be able to buy one of those and be totally tax free. That’s a good start. Then sell that and move to something better, and so on, as it is usual.

  • Anonymous

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  • James C.

    Even though I am a Fair Tax supporter, even I will admit that it’s not perfect and has flaws. However, I’d like to bring up the point that the article calculates the tax on a $100 item incorrectly. The article switches from exclusive to inclusive tax without altering the parameters of the equation, thus misleading the reader. Let’s look at what’s stated in the article:

    “If you purchase an item for $100 that has a 23% tax, you would expect to pay $123 total. This would be an exclusive tax. However, the Fair Tax plan calculates their tax as inclusive. In other words, your $100 purchase already incorporates $77 for how much the item costs and $23 for the actual tax. But a $23 tax on a $77 purchase comes out to 30% the way we currently measure it.”

    Under the FairTax, an item that sells for $100 would get a 23% tax on it, making the item $123 if we calculate an exclusive tax. That much is true.

    When you switch to inclusive, you don’t subtract the $23 from the $100 to get a $77 base price. The $23 tax is calculated as an exclusive tax based on the item’s base price of $100. Why would you subtract an exclusive tax you derive from an item to establish its new base price to then establish the inclusive tax? It doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t work out mathematically.

    If you want to calculate how much an inclusive tax of 23% would be, you must find out how much that item is without the 23% tax. So let’s do some basic algebra.

    .23x + x = 100
    having x = to the base price of the item.

    When you solve for x, the item costs $81.30. Add the 23% Fair Tax of $18.70 to that price and it becomes $100. Recall what your old algebra teacher said long ago – “check your math backwards and forwards”. Ok, why not!

    Exclusive Tax:

    $100 item at 23% tax = $123 total.

    100 times 1.23 = 123. (or 100 + (100 times .23) = 123).

    now reverse it:

    .23x + x = 123
    1.23x = 123
    x = 100

    Inclusive Tax:
    Item total = $100. find base and tax based on 23%

    .23x + x = 100
    1.23x = 100
    x = 81.30

    now reverse it:
    81.30 times 1.23 = 100. (or 81.30 + (81.30 times .23) = 100).

    • http://www.moneycrashers.com/ Holly

      James, I absolutely understand where you’re coming from. The inclusive vs. exclusive tax is quite hard to get one’s head around. And first off, I want to make it clear that I understand your numbers and have no problems with basic or even advanced algebra. That’s not where the problem is in your analysis. The problem is before that point – it’s the premise on which you base your calculations. Here:
      A tax-exclusive tax rate refers to the amount of tax paid as a proportion of the pretax value of whatever is taxed; sales tax rates are typically expressed in tax-exclusive terms. A tax-inclusive rate, conversely, refers to the AMOUNT OF TAX PAID AS A PROPORTION OF THE AFTER-TAX VALUE; income tax rates are often expressed in tax-inclusive terms. Thus the difference between the two definitions is whether or not the tax paid is included in the denominator when calculating the tax rate. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/improve/retail/exclusive-inclusive.cfm

      That’s from the Tax Policy Center. What you actually arrived at in your last calculation is the exclusive tax – you just called it inclusive. You didn’t calculate tax off the after-tax value (100), you calculated it off the pre-tax value (81.30), which you arrived at by using basic algebra. But they are two very separate calculations and not just a matter of semantics.

      $100, 23% tax, calculated exclusively: .23 x $100(pre-tax amount) = $23, you pay $123 total.
      $100, 23% tax, calculated inclusively: .23 x $100(post-tax amount) = $23. But you still pay $100 total. Then, by simple math, to arrive at the purchase price sans tax, subtract $23 from $100. You get $77. A $23 tax on a $77 purchase at the store represents a 30% sales tax.

      I hope that helped. Here are a few more places to go to get a little further insight if you’d like:

    • punatic

      it’s totally flawed on face…….don’t fall for this huge lie!

    • Chris Bowen

      you are looking at this incorrectly. It is either a 30% tax exclusive, as in sales tax, or a 23% tax inclusive, as in added in the price.

      Looking at it from a sales tax way you get 77+ 77(.30)= 100.01

      Looking at it from the way they want you to see it is 100-100(.23)=77

      Either way you get about the same price, within a penny or so. The difference is the second way is VERY misleading, because when we look at consumption taxes we look at it as exclusive.

  • FairTax Advocate

    Holly needs to heed her own advice. “To figure out where you stand on this high-profile issue, get the facts, weigh the pros and cons, and draw your own personal conclusions.” by doing a more thourough job of getting the facts. There are many mis-statements here although in general she has a better than average grasp of the FairTax.
    The real understanding come after knowing the FairTax and then looking at how it relieves issues resident in our income tax and most if not all of the modified income tax plans regardless if they are a form of Flat Tax including 9-9-9 which has created issues worse that the Flat Tax proposals other than HR-1040.

    • DWW bio

      i think that your completely right but wrong in many way pros and cons come in many shapes and size some can royally mess us up and others not as much….

  • http://www.facebook.com/marylee.belleville MaryLee Belleville

    I just started researching the “FairTax” when a bunch of Gary Johnson supporters started hitting up us Buddy Roemer supporters on FB. Buddy has unfortunately dropped his bid for the Presidency, but his tax reform plan has real merit from the perspective of both simplicity and fairness. Basically, the first $50,000 is exempt from all Federal income tax. After that all income is taxed at 17%. This applies to both individuals and corporations, both income from wages, profits and capital gains. All exemption’s go way. This is the simplest and fairest plan I have heard of.

    The “Fair Tax” is anything but. It shifts 100% of the tax burden to the people. Corporations pay zero. Of course now that the SCOTUS has declared that corporations are people, maybe that is up for debate.

    This is just classic trickle down nonsense. We are supposed to believe that because corporations would pay zero that they would pass those saving on to the consumer. If you believe that, I have a bridge for sale. Also it seems that there is huge opportunity for business to fudge the books. On top of that, it isn’t referenced in the article, but I read that the government could pay businesses a 3% fee for collecting and submitting the taxes. Can anyone confirm?

    • DWW bio

      sorry but i cant confirm your results

    • sonoranrant

      As you may have read in the article, corporations don’t pay ANY income taxes. They just pass the tax burden on to consumers in the form of higher prices. Stop trying to get corporations to pay their “fair share” When they raise prices it affects those least able to afford the increase.

    • punatic

      you ARE correct about corporations being the ‘friends’ of people……you’ll never see any price deductions…..and you’ll NEVER see any of those off-shored jobs come back either! This is just corporate garbage sold to the tea party dopes who fall for this travesty!

      • Robert Russ

        Yeah, because corporations and “the 1%” dont manipulate the current system. at all. Just one question, punatic: Have you read the bill? Oh, and I challenge you to use your facebook to login. I find people on these here interwebs are much more civil when the conversation is tied to them, not behind a screen name.

        • Chris Bowen

          just because they abuse the current system does not mean that the fair tax is better. In fact after looking over it, having been at first optimistic, it really is a way for the rich and the corporations to abuse the system even more.

    • showard351

      One problem I have with other ‘Flat Tax’ ideas is that the main problems still exist. The IRS still exists and the government stills knows where I work and how much money I make. They don’t need to know that.

      • Tracy A. Goode

        The Fair Tax is NOT a “Flat Tax” and eliminates the IRS. The Government has no need to know how much you make, even for Soc. Security purposes–you actually would pay NO Soc. Security taxes.

        From the Fair Tax website: “Plus, seniors, like everyone else, receive a monthly prebate, in advance of purchases, for taxes paid on the cost of necessities which more than pays for all of the taxes they would pay if they received the average Social Security benefit amount and spent it all. If seniors choose to work, they are freed from regressive payroll taxes, the federal income tax on wages, and the compliance burdens associated with each. They pay no more hidden taxes on goods or services, and used goods are tax free. There is no income tax on their Social Security benefits.”

        Add to that that the Fair Tax actually brings in MORE money than the current system, as shown in studies, the Government can actually PAY Soc. Security to everyone without knowing how much you earned–everyone would just receive the same amount, and you could actually save MORE than they would pay you under the current system on your own.

        • showard351

          Read my post again. I am for the Fair Tax!

    • Colin Valenta

      Corporation already pay $0 in taxes. The consumer always pays the tax no matter what system you use.

      • Chris Bowen

        And this will not change. In fact it gives the corporations a chance to earn more by not eliminating the taxes they now avoid from the price.

        • Colin Valenta

          If Pepsi hoarded its savings you don’t think Coke would use some of their tax savings to lower prices? The prices will balance out to what the market is willing to pay. That’s the beauty of the free market.

        • Chris Bowen

          Umm, it does not work that way. When Pepsi offers a deal on its products it is topically not the case that coke offers the exact same deal, which under your belief in the free market it would.

          For example coke had a profit margin of 20% on its products in Sept 2014, Pepsi at 11%. Why did coke not lower its prices, since it had lower costs?

        • Colin Valenta

          Pretty simple answer there. People were paying for it. Why would Coke lower its prices if people were buying it anyway? It’s not the corporations fault they are making money. The people buying their product dictate the price and they pay the taxes for the corporation, so why not skip the middleman and save the world a whole lot of trouble while lowering costs of goods?

        • Chris Bowen

          So you just proved why it will not work. People will still pay for it, why would they lower their prices, sicne the people paying for it dictate the price, middle man or not. There is no evidence they will lower their price.

    • Tracy A. Goode

      We already PAY all the taxes–When you consider that a box of twinkies has payroll taxes on the person who harvests the seeds that grows the wheat, the person that plants the wheat that then has to be harvested (more payroll taxes) to be taken to the mill by a trucker (MORE payroll taxes) where it is ground into flour (MORE payroll taxes) then shipped to the bakery (MORE payroll taxes) where it is made into a cake (MORE payroll taxes), filled with cream (and THOSE payroll taxes follow the same path) and wrapped in plastic (MORE payroll taxes), packaged in a box (MORE payroll taxes), shipped to the store (MORE payroll taxes) and all of those taxes are wrapped up in that $3 a box price–the price excluding taxes (and
      compliance costs- a “whole ‘nother ballgame” that will ALSO disappear),
      the price is probably only around $1 a box for the Twinkies themselves. As people gain THAT money back in their paychecks, and have more money to spend, there will be more opportunity for competition, driving prices down. At the same time, those competitive companies will need workers, and as the worker pool shrinks, wages will increase. As more people have more money, they will want more goods. More jobs will be necessary to make those goods, wages will rise. And so on and so on. Because used items are not taxed, the taxes having been paid on them, businesses will have more incentive to LOWER prices in order to keep new goods being purchased–leading to more money in people’s pockets. The prebate untaxes your everyday needs, and lowers your overall tax rate, until you spend more–but it’s YOUR choice to spend more–or SAVE more.

      Look, it already works. While this is a consumption tax, not a sales tax, Texas has one of the top 20 economies in the WORLD. It GREW during the Recession and RECOVERED faster than the rest of the country. Texas HAS NO INCOME TAX. It operates on a Sales Tax.

      • Henry Salo

        Texas has no income tax, same as Florida and Alaska. Texas also has oil, industries, cattle and it is a tourist attraction. Same as Florida has Epcot, Universal Park, tourist attraction. Alaska used to have an income tax but it was repealed when oil was discovered. Alaska is just starting to become an tourist attraction. States like these can make up for the income tax because of other resources. But states that don’t have natural resources, not a tourist attraction or whatever. YOU CAN”T COMPARE TEXAS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES OR OTHER STATES. YOU know better than that. What is the matter with you? Comparing this state with another state or comparing this state with another country. Plus there are countries that do have incomes taxes and a VAT and they are doing very well economically. Countries like Germany and Finland. I’m of Finnish descent and I look at Finland’s economic situation with the world. China and Hong Kong are doing well. Hong Kong has a two tier income tax but no sales tax. China has a complex tax system which includes an income tax. Quit the comparing stuff. I heard of that stuff before.

  • Chase Barfield

    I see that many people are focusing on rent below. Here is the best explanation of the difference between rent under our current system and rent under The Fair Tax.

    “An example in the FairTax Research information compared the Income Tax structure with the FairTax structure using $500 in monthly rents. With a 15% income tax bracket, the renter would have to earn $647 in order to pay his income taxes and payroll taxes and have $500 left to pay his rent.

    Under the FairTax structure, the $500 rent plus the 23% sales tax amounts to $649, $2 more than the income tax in order to cover his rent. HOWEVER, in comes the pre-bate to the rescue! And that renter has only had to use $2 of his monthly pre-bate to pay his rent, leaving the remainder to pay the taxes on his medical bills, dental bills, groceries, etc.”

    And, as for the 23% tax and how it compares to income taxes, this comes straight from the Fair Tax:

    The income tax bracket most people fall into is 15 percent, and all wage earners pay 7.65 percent in payroll taxes. That’s 23 percent right there, without taking into account the 7.65 percent employer matching! On top of that, you have to add in the business taxes and associated compliance costs passed on to consumers in higher prices.

    Effective tax rates vs. stated tax rates
    Because the 23-percent FairTax rate of $0.23 on every dollar spent is not imposed on necessities, an individual spending $30,000 pays an effective tax rate of only 15.5 percent, not 23 percent. That same individual will pay 17.3 percent of his or her income to federal taxes under current law.

    • Chris Bowen

      So you use the entirety of the prebate to pay for your rent taxes. Then what is left over for the food and other necessitates? You cannot just take one segment and ignore the big picture which will still have the elevated taxes on and some of which were tax deductable.

  • Jcperez2000

    We teach our children that READING is a key component to become successful. For instance, most of us would encourage our children to READ test questions twice before answering – right? Well the children who fail in school are those whose parents promote the concept “Answer test questions without reading.” All those who oppose the FairTax, unfortunately, are doing so WITHOUT READING the bill once, let alone twice. Reading can help many of those who oppose to “Oppose by intelligence and not Ignorance.”

    • punatic

      baloney!…..once is enough with this garbage policy…….it’s geared for the wealthy ONLY! how dumb are you people?

      • Tracy A. Goode

        Punatic…is your name Richard, by any chance?

        It is geared toward EVERYONE. Read it, study it, THEN think you know what you’re saying.

  • http://twitter.com/TXFairTaxer TXFairTaxer

    Wait! You are “dedicated to empowering people to take charge of their finances”. Yet you SLAM the one and only tax plan that will actually give people the freedom to take charge of their finances?? I don’t think you truly understand the FairTax the way you think you do. Here is some info I hope you will take in:

    The FairTax gives you your federal taxes back.

    The FairTax allows We the People to CHOOSE when WE want to pay taxes.

    The FairTax prevents our corrupt politicians from picking the products/services that YOU may or may not use.

    The FairTax eliminates the $430 Billion Dollar Annual Tax Gap.

    The FairTax abolishes the $1 Trillion Dollar Annual Drag on our Economy (aka, the IRS)

    The FairTax will return 10,000,000 Jobs to America within the 1st 24 months of being enacted.


    The FairTax will completely UNTAX the poor.

    The FairTax will tax ALL legal US citizens EQUALLY.

    Did you overlook all that when you were so focused on how bad it would treat the CRIMINALS who come to this country, STEAL our jobs, take advantage of our businesses, and send the money they earn to other countries?

    • punatic

      typical tea party gibberish…..or should I say ‘garbage’!…..I mean ‘we the people’?…….sheesh!

      • Robert Russ

        Care to refute any points with logic and reason, or are you going to hide behind a fake computer name and hurl insults?

    • showard351

      Touche! Get the government out of your paycheck!

      • Henry Salo

        Correction: The government will be checking your paycheck even under the Fair Tax. All incomes and payrolls must be filed with the Social Security Administration which is Federal. That is when you retire and file for Social Security, they go by payroll and income records. Family sizes have to be reported in in order to get the prebates. You think of a better way?

        • Robert Williams ®

          But they are not using that information AGAINST you or for Tax Collection purposes.

        • Henry Salo

          Correction: For Tax Collection purposes, they will be looking for your receipts.

        • Tracy A. Goode

          Unless you pay by credit or debit card, your receipts say nothing about who you are.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          Is this not taken care of by the retailer?

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          There will have to be some sort of audit process to ensure that people don’t rob the Social Security system by reporting income incorrectly.

    • Chris Bowen

      1) No it does not. It just shifts when you pay it, and you end up paying more, unless you are rich.
      2) Only to a very limited extent. You still have to eat, you still have to have a shelter every month.
      3) no it does not, it just allows them to hide it better.
      4) No it does not. It creates a black market for untaxed goods which may or may not increase or decrease it.
      5) For eveyr $1 spent on the IRS they bring in $200. So while the IRS is actually funded at 12b, they bring in way more.
      6) There is no evidence of this being true. This will not provable
      7) no in gives the ultimate in corperate welfare, no more taxes at all.
      8) Only the average poor based on the average cost of living. In higher cost of living states it will not.
      9) no it does not. It taxes the wealthy at a lower rate, actually lower than the current tax structure, and allows the wealthy to lower their burden even more. Even still you contradict yourself. You cannot say it taxes everyone equally and say it will completely untax one segment (aka the poor). Those are contradictory statements, unless you are attempting to be misleading.
      10) the jobs illegals take Americans tend to not work.

  • JoKeR

    I’d like to mention three things which I have not seen adequately addressed in the comments I’ve read below.

    First, the Fair Tax proponents claim that the entire expense of the IRS would be eliminated since there would be no income tax. This may be true as far as the current IRS structure goes, but a new and still huge government operation will be needed to collect and monitor the Fair Tax collections. The proponents mention that tax receipts from businesses will be monitored and tax cheats punished but they don’t mention how this will be done. Clearly the responsibility for this will have to be shouldered by someone and monitoring all sales transactions in the USofA will definitely be a non-trivial endeavor.

    Another point is the Fair Tax application to home sales. As I’ve seen it described here this tax would only apply to new homes since it would not apply to sales of used items. Creating an artificial differential of 23% (or 30% as the inclusive/exclusive calculations show) would put a big damper on new home building which is a huge business in this country. This tax would definitely not create jobs in this industry.

    Finally, a more controversial point. The Fair Tax is designed to target undocumented immigrants, and according to what I read here also legal immigrants in this country on visas, with green cards, etc. Since these people would not be eligible for the Prebate they would not experience the offsetting effect of the Prebate and thus would have a higher percentage of their spending (100%) taxed instead of only the after-necessity spending with the essential food/rent spending being offset by the Prebate. This would affect many millions of people and these are already some of the most marginalized people in the country. A tax which falls disproportionately on the most vulnerable and least empowered people is unfair on the face of it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/gary.lund.961 Gary Lund

      So you wish to reward illegal activity? Why should I have to pay for illegals? What is fair about that? Perhaps if it is too expensive to come illegally they will work to come legally? Please feel free to give your money to them but don’t force me to do it.

      So what if folks with less money pay a “higher percentage” of their income to taxes? They still pay less real taxes than those who make more. Those who make more spend more and pay more. That is far more fair that 47% of the population paying little to nothing into government and leaving everyone else to pay for government and for them. Everyone should pay in and have “skin in the game.” If everyone pays in then perhaps everyone will be a little more careful on how it is spent. Right now there is a huge percentage of the population that does not pay in but net takes so they are motivated to take more and more. There is no motivation for wisdom, responsibility, or frugality. And to make matters worse we blame the most successful and call them bad for not carrying more of the load. This is divisive at the least and surely encourages evasion whereever possible.

      • NoNeedforNamecalling

        Absolutely 100% agree. This moron above you is blinded by his left-leaning views. “Undocumented immigrants”? They’re illegal.

      • Tracy A. Goode

        The poor actually DON’T pay a higher percentage of their income under the Fair Tax–they pay LESS, thanks to the Prebate that EVERY legal resident gets. And as prices come down–which they will–it will allow them to save some little of the money they DO have once everything is no longer triple taxed, allowing them to get OUT of poverty if they wish by careful saving and investing in their own futures.

        When you consider that a box of twinkies has payroll taxes on the person who harvests the seeds that grows the wheat, the person that plants the wheat that then has to be harvested (more payroll taxes) to be taken to the mill by a trucker (MORE payroll taxes) where it is ground into flour (MORE payroll taxes) then shipped to the bakery (MORE payroll taxes) where it is made into a cake (MORE payroll taxes), filled with cream (and THOSE payroll taxes follow the same path) and wrapped in plastic (MORE payroll taxes), packaged in a box (MORE payroll taxes), shipped to the store (MORE payroll taxes) and all of those taxes are wrapped up in that $3 a box price–the price excluding taxes (and compliance costs- a whole ‘nother ballgame that will ALSO disappear), the price is probably only around $1 a box for the Twinkies themselves. That’s a big savings on ANYONE, not just the Poor.

        As a side note–under the Fair Tax, there is less need for Class Warfare, when everyone has the ability to make the choices that lets them move up in class.

        • Chris Bowen

          Prices will come down at the same time the middle class will see benefits of trickle down. This is the same thing. A pipe dream by those wishing to pay less, that in the long run will make them pay more and the rich pay less.

    • showard351

      The Fair Tax is implemented and managed by the states. They receive a percentage for this service. Have you read the bill?

      • Henry Salo

        Article I, Section 8, U.S. Constitution: The Congress Shall Have The Power to Lay and Collect Taxes. This is a Federal Tax and it should be collected by the Federal agency for the Federal government, not the States. States are considered sovereignty. Businesses collect the money and send it to a Federal agency. That’s what they do with the Federal gas tax. I don’t care what these clowns wrote in that plan. I saw the plan and their writing is wrong.

        • showard351

          With the Fair Tax, it won’t happen that way. The state collects, manages, and pays the federal government, and gets a fee/percentage for doing it.

          The federal government will still have the power to lay and collect taxes, they just wont be doing it in the case of the Fair Tax.

          You must be an IRS agent. Better start looking for a job.

          Abolish the IRS, support the Fair Tax.

        • Henry Salo

          I disagree. The Federal government should handle their own taxes and the states, their own taxes. That’s the way it should be. What you are stating is unconstitutional. As for me being an IRS agent , that is the DUMDEST conclusion I ever heard. I’m retired and I believe in the Constitution even though you don’t. As for abolishing the IRS? This so called Fair Tax will create 3 new Federal agencies in place of the IRS.

        • showard351

          It will be law! The Income Tax is an invasion of my privacy as a US citizen. The federal government has no business knowing where I work and how much money I make. They have no business knowing how many dependants I have and how much I pay on my home mortgage! They just use that information to divide us into groups and play us against each other.

          So you are a supporter of the currnet Income Tax? 60,000 pages of exceptions for campaign contributers? 49% of Americans don’t even pay it! How fair is that? Shouldn’t you pay your fair share? The Income Tax will die. It is just a metter of time.

        • Henry Salo

          Also forgot to say this. “You must be an IRS agent. Better start looking for a job”. That is another DUMB conclusion. AS you note, the so called Fair Tax IS NOT A LAW. Chances of it becoming law 1% to zero. Not very good odds. The Fair Tax sponsors are not even pushing it. I heard a Senator who was a sponsor, was interviewed. Last time it was before the House Ways & Means Committee was in July, 2011. Mike Huckabee was the spokesman for it. Huckabee was the WORST spokesman for the tax. His face was twitching every time he talked. I watched it when it was televised. So the IRS will be with us and stop this nonsense, “better start looking for a job”. IT’S NOT LAW.

        • Henry Salo

          You said the so called Fair Tax abolishes the IRS? The Federal government will still need a Federal agency to process and handle this type of tax. With the IRS gone, who is going to enforce this tax? The fairy godmother? They will need a Federal agency to process S.S. filings, Obamacare, process and handling the prebates and so on. Your conclusion that the IRS will be abolished is Total Nonsense. The IRS will still be there under another name. How do you know if the states are going to handle this? Your conclusion. The states have enough problems handling their own taxes. The Federal government should manage their own taxes and leave the states managing thir taxes.

    • Tracy A. Goode

      Legal RESIDENTS would be eligible for the Prebate. Those who are hear VISITING or are here ILLEGALLY would pay the full 23% on goods. Those here as “undocumented workers” are breaking the law; this would give them incentive for coming here LEGALLY. Add to that, as more jobs are created, and fewer Americans are available to fill them, it gives Government an incentive to go back to the dayworker programs that existed before the Great Depression made it necessary to close the borders so that white males would have jobs.

  • wjones4iv

    After reading the comments I am left wondering how much in actual dollars the prebate will be. Does anyone know how the prebate will be calculated?

  • SWG

    I think you need to be very clear on how the FAIR tax performs at the retail level. Your example of an item being marked $100 but in actuality is a $77 dollar item with a taxed amount of $23 added is misleading. You are inviting people to believe that they will be paying $23 more for this item than they do at the present time. This is not the way the plan works. The item you will pay $100 for (should this plan ever pass) is already currently sold for $100…PLUS you pay sales tax on top of that giving the item a retail cost of $108.00 (if your state sales tax is let’s say 8%) to the consumer. Under the FAIR tax you will only pay $100, because there is a 23% tax already embedded into that item just in order to comply with our “current” tax codes. That 23% that is embedded into the item represents every bit of tax/tax compliance costs along the way that was paid out by everyone involved in the manufacturing process of said item. The difference under the FAIR tax is that you will now only pay the $100 (not the $108) and the RETAILER will send the government $23 of the embedded tax to the government. The beauty of this plan is three fold….#1) The consumer will actually pay less out of pocket …#2) It will generate MASSIVE amounts of tax dollars because, unlike income tax, there is no getting around paying it. Every time you make a purchase, the tax dollars embedded into that item go directly to the Federal Government. Which means, that even undocumented workers will be contributing their fair share. They don’t pay income taxes now, but using this method they will pay the same taxes as everyone else unless they never step foot into a store or make a purchase of any kind (highly unlikely) This also means that the government will be collecting taxes from anyone and everyone who is paid under the table or works/owns a black-market operation…..#3) You get to keep your entire paycheck without Uncle Sam breathing down your neck. The taxes you pay are taxes you CHOSE to pay based on what you chose to purchase. There is great value in this brilliant plan, and I for one, am a firm believer that it would catapult us out of our economic crisis, and quickly start paving the way for paying off our national debt, thus freeing us from the grips of borrowing money from countries that don’t like us. My understanding is, that there is also a provision made for those who are of low income, which refunds them, on a monthly basis, for any of the taxes that apply to staples and day to day living costs. There are two excellent books out called the “Fair Tax”, and “Fair Tax: The Truth: Answering the Critics”. Both books were written by Congressman John Linder and Neal Boortz. Before you judge, you need to be educated. This could change the entire face of our economy and make us an economic super power once again.

    • Chris Bowen

      You are making assumptions that are incorrect. You cannot say retailers will lower their prices, or keep them the same with the tax included. Since the cost and the tax makes things even more murky and everyone has different margins, prices will more than likely stay elevated.

  • djc1309

    Very good article Holly. Finally someone has addressed both sides of the issue. I like a lot of the things that the FairTax will accomplish. But the simple truth is that the 23% inclusive (30% exclusive) tax will raise the price of everyday consumables by about 22% (exclusive). That means that a gallon of gas that currently costs $4.00 will cost the consumer $4.88. Other items that do not have various layers of distribution in them will increase by more. For example, if someone is currently paying $1,000.00 a month in rent, they will be paying $1,300.00/mo under the FairTax. FairTax supporters will try to tell you that prices will not increase because there are about 23% of embedded taxes that will be replaced by the FairTax. This is simply not true. A company producing a product will only be relieved of the 7.5% taxes they pay to match the employees SS/HI. This amounts to a measly 0.8% of the selling price of the product. Corporate income taxes amount to another 1.7% of the sales price. This nets the company a total savings of 2.5% of sales.
    You are correct Holly, that this bill creates the largest entitlement program in history. Every household will be entitled to a prebate check no matter what their income. Millionaires will be getting the same prebates that the poor get.
    Business’s are totally exempt from paying a consumption tax on items that they consume.
    You are also correct to point out the deception that the promoters of this bill practice. For example, the promoters of this bill are quick to point out that the bill will eliminate the IRS, but they keep it pretty well hidden that the bill creates TWO new IRS type agencies to replace the IRS with.
    After reading some of the posts here, I find it amusing that the FairTax supporters still do not know how to calculate a markup on a product. To calculate a markup on a product, you simply subtract the desired markup from 100, divide the difference by 100 and then divide the cost of the product by the quotient. For example, if you need a 35% Gross Profit margin and your cost is $50.00, you would divide 50 by .65 to get a selling price of $76.92. If you add in the 23% (inclusive) Fair Tax, you will divide your $76.92 selling price .77 and you get a new selling price of $99.90. Yes, your $50.00 initial cost will go down by a little bit because the maker of the product has about 2.5% reduction in cost by not having to match the employees SS/HI and by not having to pay income taxes.
    In the end, this bill will increase the tax burden on the low and moderate income class while giving the upper income class a substancial tax break. A simple way to look at it is to acknowledge that ALL taxes are ultimately paid by the consumer. The wealthy in this country simply do not consume the amount of product that the lower and moderate income people consume. Therefore, the lower and moderate income class will have to pay the bulk of this tax. Corporations do not pay taxes, they simply collect the taxes and forward them on to the government.

    • showard351

      This is incorrect. The Fair Tax is not added on to the sales price like a sales tax. The Fair Tax is included in the price by the retailer (inclusive). You will never see the Fair Tax in the price of your goods and services, just like you
      don’t see the income tax that the producer pays now. It is already included in the price. This is why the Fair Tax is more properly called a consumption tax, not a sales tax. Sales taxes are quoted exclusively. Have you read the bill? I have. HR25.

  • LandOwner

    Where does this stand on property tax? I know a lot of people having to sell their land they own because they can’t pay the federal property tax.

    • punatic

      what ‘federal property tax’?…..are you confusing this with inheritance tax?……there is NO federal property tax.

      • Chris Bowen

        There will be, under the fair tax. It may not be called a federal property tax, and it is not yearly, but is the same thing.

  • Grailxox

    Why can’t we just have a flat rate income tax? 10 percent from everyone. Get rid of income tax and just tax everything with a flat rate! FLAT RATE!! Take ten percent from the lower, middle and upper class. Stupid adults.

    • showard351

      Because the government will still know where you work and how much money you make. They just use this information to put us into groups and play us against each other.

    • Tracy A. Goode

      Because a flat tax is still a tax on income, still discourages productivity, is still manipulable by Congress in favor of their friends and never stays flat. The current mess STARTED as a flat tax, has been reflattened time and again, and never stays flat. The Fair Tax is a consumption tax, and about the most it will do, other than raise more revenue as it captures the tax dollars not paid by illegal activities, illegal residents and under the table workers, is change some consumption habits as people make wiser choices and save more money. Even that will be mitigated by the fact that people will have MORE money to spend as businesses come back from overseas, create jobs, compete for workers and wages rise.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002198280854 Robert Russ

    M(r)s. Mangan,
    I will have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the use inclusive vs. exlusive tax rates being an intentional ruse. This is from the article you linked in response to James C. from the Tax Policy Center:

    “Sales tax rates are typically quoted in tax-exclusive terms, but income tax rates are typically quoted as tax-inclusive rates. For example, a household that earns $130 and pays $30 in income taxes would normally think of itself as facing roughly a 23 percent (30/130) income tax rate.”

    You have to compare apples to apples. Stating the fair tax in tax-exclusive terms and comparing it to the current income tax (which is stated in tax-inclusive terms) wouldnt be, well, fair.

    For example, an individual who earns $ 100,000/yr pays about 25% in Federal income tax, or $25,000. This is the tax inclusive rate.

    However, if calculated as the tax-exclusive rate, it jumps to 33%.

    Another way to state is:
    I pay for an item costing $100. $23 dollars goes to the FairTax.
    I earn a paycheck at $100. $25 dollars goes to the IRS.

    I am not sure how old this article is, so it may fall on deaf ears. I would appreciate a response, as this is one of the most commonly misunderstood aspect of the Fair Tax.

    • showard351

      The Fair Tax is not added on to the sales price like a sales tax. The Fair Tax is included in the price by the retailer. You will never see the Fair Tax in the price of your goods and services, just like you don’t see the income tax that the producer pays. It is already included in the price. This is why the Fair Tax is more properly called a consumption tax. Have you read the bill? I have. HR25.

      • Robert Russ

        I think we are saying the same thing. I never said it was a sales tax (I did however include quotes from the article)

  • Viethalweapon

    The issue of confusion is it’s not a 23% tax on the value of the item or service your are purchasing, set by the business selling said items or services; it is a 23% tax on the total amount of money spent. Therefore, in order for a business to make a certain dollar amount of revenue, they would need to charge approximately 30% above the current today sticker price to make the same amount of money. This could potentially balance itself out if what is outlined in number 4 of the above statements listed under pros happens and businesses could indeed lower the rates of their goods and services to operate at the same level of success.

    • showard351

      The Fair Tax is not a sales tax. Sales taxes are usually quoted exclusively. The Fair Tax is quoted inclusively. It should be called a consumption tax.

    • punatic

      they’ve already duped you too……

    • schlice

      That’s absolutely untrue. The business revenue doesn’t have anything to do with the tax. The tax is added to what the business charges for the product.

      The amount that the business currently charges for the product will drop because the business previously had to roll corporate taxes into the cost of their product, which increased the price of their product by 30%. Remove that 30% and they still make a profit, because they still charge the cost of the item plus profit. The 23% consumption tax gets added back in, and the price of the product remains pretty stable.

      Market forces will ensure that corporations don’t leave additional hidden profit in their prices. Margins are already paper thin on products, playing that game will only lose them business.

  • santara34

    Atlas Shrugged

  • Jerry

    Want progressive fair tax? Have it apply to ALL sales – meaning purchases of stocks, bonds, all financial instruments, real estate, property and so on. This would make it fair and progressive. I bet the rate would drop to about 5%. No more stock market, or any other market, speculation.

    • Colin Valenta

      Your theory results in double taxation, which isn’t good for anyone.

    • John Wiese

      Bad idea taxing investment lowers the amount of money available for investment, which means less money for creating jobs.
      I have heard of an interesting tax system called a transaction tax that would tax every exchange of money 0.5%, so you lose .5% of your paycheck, .5% on everything you buy, and .5% on every stock transaction. Not a bad deal but a bit difficult to implement since the stock market is international.

  • Scott Hedrick

    “I have a five-person family: two adults and three children. Our effective tax rate was 8.91% last year”

    I’d just like to point out that including FICA tax you paid either (13.3 + 8.91)% or (15.3 + 8.91)% depending on when this was written. Thus under the consumption tax with the prebate you would not have paid as much in taxes. Also assuming you’ve likely saved / invested some of your income, even without the prebate you would have spent less on taxes.

    • showard351

      Also, the price of goods and services would not likely go up much. The Fair Tax removes all income taxes, even from companies. So the companies that produce the goods and services will no longer pay income tax. So that will come out of the price, and will eventually be replaced by the Fair Tax consumption tax.

      • punatic

        baloney, the greed of corporations remains as well as the filthy corporate executives…..they aren’t nice people and never have been…..they’ll make as much as they can wrangle out of you while they find a way to bypass their own purchase taxes…..who are you kidding? they’ll somehow figure out a way to buy milk as a corporate to corporate item/widget and pay “0” !

        • showard351

          Competition, market forces will keep the prices low.

        • ptdeep51

          Maybe punatic would rather live in South America or Central America. You would then have gotten away from all those greedy rich people who pump money into the economy and give you a job

        • schlice

          You are quite deluded. Corporations are legal fictions which do not pay taxes anyway. Anyone who believes you can tax a corporation to benefit a poor worker is deluded at best. Any tax levied against a corporation gets passed directly into the price of the product they produce, or comes out of the wages paid to its workers. When we remove the payroll tax and the corporate tax, the workers benefit twice. They get all their money, and the corporate taxes that were previously embedded in the price of the product disappear. They get replaced by the consumption tax, so net prices shouldn’t change much.

        • John Wiese

          Yes they can get tax free milk IF they’re making CHEESE. They will be forced to lower prices to match lower production costs because their goal is build a product at the lowest price possible and the sell more than their competition so if they don’t lower their prices to reflect the lower production costs their competition will and then they’ll lose market share and earn less. Remember they’re greedy not dumb.

  • Chris J. Mullins

    Can someone help me please i need some cons on this topic ASAP

    • John Wiese

      Sorry there aren’t many, the biggest one that is actually valid but still irrelevant is double taxation of after tax investments made before the FT is implemented. You paid the income tax on the money before you invested it and you’ll be taxed again when you spend it, HOWEVER, you would have spent the same amount on higher prices so it really doesn’t make a difference on buying power.
      BTW, why are you against it?

  • Djnh


  • Mary

    On the whole, a good article. One advantage that you did not mention is that the FairTax is good for the environment. There are no taxes on USED good, so buying used goods becomes significantly cheaper than new goods, thereby encouraging people to reuse stuff rather than toss it in the landfill.

    I would disagree on a few points in the article. The rich WILL pay higher taxes if the spend more money than the middle class, regardless whether they spend their entire paycheck each month or not. How many rich people live middle class lives?

    Tax evasion will be harder, not easier. Right now drug dealers, thieves, etc. pretty much evade income taxes completely but still pay sales tax. I go to the store to buy a book, I have the sales tax, but if I had an all cash business, I would only pay taxes on what I said I made.

    It also wouldn’t be a 30% increase, like you said because right now we pay a large amount for imbedded taxes that would go away if FairTax pasted. The amount of imbedded taxes varies a lot (our current system is so convoluted there is no straight answer for that) but I heard, on average, its 18%. Plus there is the Prebate, which reduces it even more.

    • showard351

      The Fair Tax is not a sales tax. Sales taxes are quoted exclusively
      (added to the sales price). The Fair Tax is inclusive. It is included in
      the price of the good or service by the retailer. It should be referred
      to as a consumption tax, not a sales tax.

      • bob60506

        Call it whatever you want; to the consumer, it is still the equivalent of a 30% sales tax. The bottom line is that we’d pay 30% over what the retailer keeps for himself. A LOT of people (about half of us) don’t pay ANY federal income taxes right now, due to deductions and credits. This would stress people just above the poverty level more than anyone else.

        • showard351

          With the FairTax, all corporate and personal income taxes go away. It is estimated that everything you buy now has an embedded 21% cost because of the corporate income tax. So replace that 21% with the 22% of the Fair Tax, and basically prices to the consumer will not rise. The 30% is arrived at when erroneously quoting 22% exclusively. There is no 30%.

          Is it fair that half of you don’t pay any income taxes? No. You need to pay your fair share!

        • John Wiese

          Technically that won’t change, if you’re living below the poverty level for your family the prebate will give you a negative tax rate just like the EITC doen now. The difference is you get to keep every dollar you earn without the possibility of being penalized for working too much and losing money because of getting taxed at a higher rate. The biggest difference is you will see the tax amount on every receipt so everyone will be able to see how expensive government is ON A DAILY BASIS, it might change our perception of government goodies and eventually we might actually stop asking for them or demanding less instead of more.

        • bob60506

          English-challenged, are you? (Learn to read better and don’t pick a fight out of sheer ignorance and I play nicely.)

          HALF OF US don’t pay income taxes. We ALL comprise “US” — as in we’re all Americans, but half of Americans (“us”) don’t pay taxes. I PAY TAXES — MORE THAN MOST.

          If a drill costs $100, including the “Fair Tax,” that means the store gets 100 – 23 = $77. $23 is 30% of $77, so THAT is the ADDITIONAL amount you would pay for that drill. THAT is how much EXTRA we are paying for something. There is nothing “erroneous” in that.

          While it may be convenient for purposes of comparison of the effect of the so-called “Fair Tax” to income taxes in the exercise of how it might affect consumer prices, it does not reflect the ADDITIONAL amount we will be paying for whatever we buy.

          As for the claim that corporate income taxes are about 21%, I’ve read that the IRS collects closer to 13%. I admit that I am not in a position to KNOW that the true number is, but if THAT happens to be true, then using the inclusive rate of 23% for purposes of comparison, now we’re going to pay 10% MORE at the register than is currently being collected by the IRS in corporate income taxes.

          Even if 21% is an accurate number, then we’re only roughly replacing corporate income taxes with this. What of all the income taxes the rest of us pay? How will the government recover those losses? (You can be sure that they WILL find a way until we wise up and start electing civil SERVANTS rather than self-serving politicians.)

          As I pointed out in another post, this is political snake oil. The REAL problem isn’t so much how the taxes get collected (because in any system, the load tends to get spread out one way or another), but HOW MUCH TAX REALLY NEEDS TO BE COLLECTED. Our governments (federal and on down) spend obscene amounts of OUR money. We all try to comprehend the enormity of the problem (don’t even TRY to count to a trillion) and most just give up and keep voting for the status quo. Too many people think that THEY are doing their fair share and if only we had a FAIRER system, then those who are gaming the system wouldn’t be getting over on the rest of us and then everything would be A-OK. Would the “Fair Tax” make some people think they’re getting more of a fair shake? Sure, for awhile. Eventually (as with ObamaCare), though, the faults would start to surface (and, without repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment it could get very ugly) and the debate would start all over again.

          This isn’t the answer, folks. It’s a Band-Aid on a severed leg.

        • John Wiese

          No, the prices stay the same, our income goes up because no payroll taxes are deducted, and the prebate would 0 out the taxes on every dollar spent up to the poverty level of your family. I’m poor and I’d love to see the FairTax implemented, the benefits far outweigh the downside.
          The reason they did it inclusively was because so it could be easily compared to the income tax, with the income tax you earn $100 and on average $23 is deducted from your check(I’ve had up to 30% coming out of my paycheck when I had a decent job), with the FT it just collected at the register instead of from your paycheck so you get to choose how much tax you pay by how you choose to spend your money.

        • Margaret Sheehy

          I am wondering why you think it is fair for you to not pay any tax when others do? I don’t think it should make any difference since they are giving you money up front to pay the added tax. Unless of course you have 5 kids and a low income and claim the child tax credit for all of them that actually puts more in your pocket than you put in. Again explain how that is fair to someone at the same income level with one or no children? I think the issue here is those that have an advantage with this system don’t want to lose it and don’t care about ‘fairness” as long as they are getting theirs.

        • bob60506

          You should learn to read and/or take some time to comprehend what you’ve read before assuming that I do not pay any tax, let alone accuse me of thinking that it would be fair for me to be so privileged, WERE that the case — WHICH IT IS NOT. I stated that about HALF OF US don’t pay income taxes. We all comprise “US,” including me, of course — but I am not in that half that doesn’t pay. A moment’s thought will tell you that those just above the poverty level would be hurt most by this proposal. Personally, I don’t see my situation changing much if this “Fair Tax” were to be implemented. If anything, my lot would probably be improved a little. Of course, that’s just at first, since Congress would STILL HAVE THE POWER TO REIMPOSE INCOME TAX at any time they so choose until the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution is repealed.

        • Denton Nelson

          “A moment’s thought will tell you that those just above the poverty level would be hurt most by this proposal.”

          Those near the poverty level would see little change in their tax burden. The prebate would return to them most of the taxes paid leaving them with an effective tax rate of just a couple percent.

          “since Congress would STILL HAVE THE POWER TO REIMPOSE INCOME TAX at any time they so choose until the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution is repealed”

          Repealing the 16th amendment is part and parcel of instituting the FairTax. Further, there is nothing stopping them from instituting a sales tax on top of the income tax right now other than fear of political backlash. Passing the FairTax (which includes the repeal) would actually make us safer from having a second tax system imposed on us.

  • http://www.facebook.com/janice.p.boston Janice Parsons Boston

    So new homes and cars are taxed, but used homes and cars are not?

    • Tracy A. Goode

      No, Janice, because the taxes will already have been paid on them when they are new. The exception would be an item bought by a business for its use that was later sold to a private person, for example, a company car. The business pays no taxes on it, but the private person would, albeit at the value of the car when sold to that person.

      This allows people to make wiser buying choices, and save money–and invest in their own futures.

      • JPfrmME

        Tracy, I have read the Fair Tax Book, the bills in the Congress currently and my understanding is that all new items will be subject to the tax, regardless of it being used by a business or not. I would like to know where the source of that tax exception you mentioned is documented, if you have it, please.

      • John Wiese

        I think that the end user is taxed so if a company buy’s a car, office supplies or a plane ticket they would pay the tax, but when they buy materials or equipment to make something else they wouldn’t be taxed. I think the only exemption are things used in production not everything, because a CEO’s would be able to buy everything with a corporate credit card tax free.

  • Joanie

    No one, that I have read, mentions how the economy would improve if people would buy “used” everything! For instance a car. Why would I go out and buy a new car for $25,000 and pay 30% tax as apposed to buying a used car for $25,000 and paying no tax? This is applied to all new verses used goods, for instance houses, clothes, appliances, etc. Just exactly how is this going to increase jobs??

    • Colin Valenta

      When TRILLIONS of dollars come back from overseas that money has to go somewhere. The rich and businesses will invest it here since taxes are low. Investments = jobs, and lots of them.

    • Tracy A. Goode

      Joanie, as businesses are untaxed, our country becomes the better place to be. As businesses come here, they will bring jobs. As more jobs come, the worker pool will become more competitive as fewer workers are without jobs. As prices drop, due to no more triple taxation, more people will want to buy more goods. As more people want to buy more goods, more jobs making those goods will be created. As more jobs are created, and more workers are needed, wages will rise. As wages rise, more people will have more money to buy more goods, which will repeat the cycle.

      You ask what is to stop someone from buying a $25,000 car used and paying no taxes–Nothing. But, pretty soon, there would BE no used cars available. And there will always be someone buying new instead–because there are those who always want the newest and best. That said, yes, 30% of the new item would be taxes, effective 23%. But, you have more paycheck available to you, and with the prebate, you actually don’t SPEND 23% unless you are spending $4,000,000 a year. Most people will spend no more than about the 18% they are already paying–and those in the underground economies, the illegal trades and being paid under the table will actually end up paying the same, instead of the ZERO they pay now.

      Studies have shown that the Fair Tax, even with the Prebate, brings in MORE money than the income tax. And, a final note–TEXAS has one of the top 20 economies in the world. No income tax, all sales tax. Its economy GREW during the recession, and recovered faster than anywhere else.

      The Fed can do the same.

    • JPfrmME

      There are only so many ‘used’ cars available and every year many of them go to the junk pile. We simply wouldn’t have enough used cars to allow everyone to buy only used cars. Remember that when the Fair Tax is implemented, the cost of producing a car will drop due to the elimination of all the enbedded income tax costs in all the parts that make up the automobile. The over all price including the new Fair Tax should be about the same as before the Fair Tax. So you would have to make the same decision that you have to make now, should you buy a lower priced used car or would pay a somewhat higher price and buy a new car?

      • Denton Nelson

        Another point to add to the above; the economic law of supply and demand tells us that as used cars become more scarce due to higher demand the price on them will rise. At some point it will likely that the prices will be close enough that you may as well buy the new car.

        • JPfrmME

          Following the supply and demand principle; if the price of used cars becomes such that you might as well buy a new car then the demand for used cars will fall and so will the prices. The prices of used cars would continue to fluctuate based on supply and demand.

    • John Wiese

      The same reason you buy a car today, there will be no difference UNLESS it’s an import that is built outside of the US which would cost more. The production cost will decrease because businesses will no longer pay taxes on production and the decreased production costs due to not having to pay payroll and income taxes is about the same as the rate of the FairTax so it will be a wash, if you could afford to buy a new car today it will be no different when the FairTax is implemented because the price will be the same, the taxes are just collected after production instead of added to production costs.

    • Nathan

      My understanding is the used car will be taxed once the fairtax is in place.

      • Denton Nelson

        This is incorrect. Taxes would be paid once when the vehicle is first sold as new. Subsequent sales would not be taxed.

    • Pb

      Joanie. The Fair Tax would only tax the buyer of a new car once. From what I understand if you buy a used vehicle that was once new the tax has already been covered on that purchase by the original buyer. So after ten years they sell that car much cheaper, the seller would cover the taxes not the buyer…is this correct?

  • punatic

    Stop this madness in it’s tracks, NOW! Don’t fall for this BS…..it’s created for the ‘tax break’ loving rich! They always want more but don’t like to pay like the average joe does!

    • zazz

      Thanks Marxist drone. The Rich as you put them, currently avoid paying Taxes. And let’s not forget connected corporations like GE…$13 Billion in profits – $0 Taxes. With a Fair Tax they’d be paying tax on the parts and supplies of every generator, light bulb and cable they installed. By the way, has a poor person ever hired you for a job?

      • marshwill

        Corporate taxes on purchases of raw goods, parts, etc. are free from the Fair Tax. Corporations do not “pay” taxes…. they simply “collect” the taxes from us–their customers–in the form of higher prices, from their emplolyees in the form of lower wages, or from their stockholders in the form of lower dividend earnings.

  • showard351

    The Fair Tax is not added on to the sales price like a sales tax. The
    Fair Tax is included in the price by the retailer. You will never see
    the Fair Tax in the price of your goods and services, just like you
    don’t see the income tax that the producer pays now. It is already
    included in the price. This is why the Fair Tax is more properly called a
    consumption tax, not a sales tax. Have you read the bill? I have. HR25.

    • Chris Bowen

      Added on after the point of sale, or included in the price matters zero. It is still added after the price of the item.

  • Dora

    Hi, why would there have to be a prebate check? Get rid of it! Then everyone should be pretty happy, the rich or wealthy wont need a prebate check.. neither would the poor… they would be receiving a larger paycheck it no taxes are taking out . A prebate check could be offered to everyone if NEEDED but it should NOT be automatic.

    • Tracy A. Goode

      Dora, the Prebate allows those things that you use on a daily basis, like food and utilities to be tax-free. It is also not automatic; you simply report how many people are living in your household. The amount is the same per person–no more “this much if you’re married filing jointly, this much if you’re married filing seperately, this much if you’re the head of a household, this much if you’re single”–which do not necessarily amount to the same amount. It is available to all LEGAL residents to take advantage of, and effectively lessens your overall tax burden–lowering that 23% so that you pay in reality no more than you do today–but you get to keep your whole paycheck. The more you spend, the less the Prebate affects your taxes, but it is FAIR to EVERY LEGAL RESIDENT–regardless of where they are from, unlike the author’s belief. She needs to reread what she is writing about.

      • Henry Salo

        There is a problem with the so called prebate. Every state has a different cost of living. Some states are higher than other. The so called prebate is the same. Look at the rents in New York and California and compared them with rents in the South and some rural states. . Also note, the “p” on prebate does not have to be capitalized. It is not a name or title.

        • John Wiese

          The prebate is based on the average cost of living and it’s no different than it is now, if you choose to live in a high cost of living area there is no special tax deduction to make up the difference higher wages do, so why should it be any different with the FairTax. If you could afford to live in a high rent area now that will not change when the FairTax in implemented.

        • llcoolray3000

          In areas where the cost of living is higher, income is generally higher as well. The prebate is similar to the standard deduction that exists in the current income tax code. The standard deduction is the same regardless of where you live.

    • Margaret Sheehy

      I agree in premise but the cost of living varies widely across the country so the elimination point would have to be quite high to compensate for that. In some parts of the country you are pretty comfortable at $100,009 a year. In LA, New York or San Francisco, you are basically just getting by. But if you are over a certain income level, it should probably be eliminated.

  • zazz

    I’m tired
    of hearing about the rich not paying enough. Every tax plan is in fact
    “progressive”. The Rich will always pay more, because they
    purchase more expensive things. The current system is a joke. Setting aside the
    outlandish corruption at the IRS, politicians use today’s tax code to pay off
    donors. To prove this, simply look through congressional records and track the
    riders submitted to bills by individual representatives over their careers in
    office. Then, examine each of their donors and you’ll find incontrovertible
    evidence that the tax breaks and political support are directly connected. For
    instance, many of todays obscure tax breaks didn’t come about by chance. Ex)
    Tax break for buying a racehorse, the myriad of tax breaks for proven to fail,
    nonsense “green” energy companies – which the taxpayers are already
    funding through grants, etc.

  • Noel Swain, CFP®

    Molly Mangan surely has an agenda, or she hasn’t gotten very deeply into the substance of The Fair Tax. You see her bias before she even gets into the disadvantages of The Fair Tax when she tells us “it falls apart” at the very beginning of the Disadvantages part of the article. Of the seven disadvantages she mentioned, six of them she has simply misconstrued or the argument itself is specious. For example, in Number 5 she says that The Fair Tax would impose a bigger tax burden on high income tax state citizens by not making their state income tax deductible against their federal income tax. Point one – why would she need a deduction against a tax that is no more? The Fair Tax eliminates the Federal income tax. Point two – Why should those in low state income tax states have to subsidize those in high state income tax states by not getting as big of a deduction against their federal tax? I believe it is fairer to make the states stand on their own. If they did, maybe their citizens would start sending different representatives to their state legislatures. The only point Molly made that has any merit is point #2. I, too, have a concern about the rise of barter clubs that could be used to skirt The Fair Tax, so I do believe legislation would need to be crafted to eliminate that as an issue. But overall, when compared to the mishmash 75,000 pages of the current Federal tax code, the 125 page Fair Tax is head and shoulders above it. To help the people who haven’t given this much thought get it properly alligned in their minds, answer this question. If our country had no current system and was in the process of designing a federal tax system, and the voters had to choose between what we have on the books right now, with all 75,000 pages of loopholes and contradictory language that taxed production, and a 125 page simple tax system that taxed consumption, what do you think the people would choose? What would Molly choose? What would you choose?

    • Erik

      It said that the federal taxes would go away, but that a person could NOT deduct their STATE tax anymore. NOT that they would have to pay federal AND state taxes. (Though federal income tax would go away, state income tax would remain,
      and of course it would no longer be deductible against federal taxes.
      The effect would be a great burden on residents of high income tax
      states like California. Moreover, unless you live in a sales tax free
      state, like Oregon or New Hampshire, you could pay your state’s sales tax on top of the Fair Tax and on top of your state’s income tax. For a family living in Los Angeles making $100,000, this would be well over 40%!)

      • schlice

        With the Federal government repealing income tax, you can be sure that states will quickly follow suit and eliminate their own income tax. I predict that states wouldn’t last one or two election cycles before “State Tax Repeal” candidates flood their legislatures.

        And when businesses and people quickly migrate away from states who stubbornly cling to the past and hold on to their poor state income tax systems, states will be clamoring for a chance to repeal their income taxes (holding special mid-term ballot measures, special state constitutional conventions, etc).

      • JPfrmME

        Please explain why state income taxes would remain. Most states simply base their income tax forms on the federal tax form as filed. It that is eliminated, the states are going to have to pass lots of tax code to duplicate what the Federal government is doing now. Do you really think that would happen. You think the citizens of those states having had their federal tax burdensome system eliminated from their lives would allow their state legislators to put it back in? It would be so much easier for the state legislators to simply have an add on State Fair Tax. Wouldn’t it?

      • marshwill

        Please explain what would be the value of a deduction (state income tax) from a tax that is no longer being collected (Federal Income Tax). I can’t see any lost value. Same for a home mortgage deduction!! The FairTax essentially “deducts” 100% of your earnings from any tax liability. I like that much more than I like my home mortgage deduction.

      • Margaret Sheehy

        If you don’t itemize, you can’t deduct state tax anyway. If you don’t own a home with a mortgage, it is unlikely you have more deductions than the standardized amount so you are not deducting it….this is fairer to everyone across the board even though I used to not think so. My effective tax rate stays basically the same either way per the calculator.

    • bob60506

      The “Fair Tax” DOES NOT ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX. The power to collect it REMAINS in the Constitution. Congress might *choose* not to collect income tax for some period of time, but when the coffers aren’t filling as fast as they would like (which, historically, has been ALL THE TIME), they can reinstate it at will. With over A HUNDRED TRILLION DOLLARS of unfunded liabilities in the pipeline, you can bet your bottom dollar (if Congress hasn’t already done it for you) that they WILL reinstate the income tax someday if they pass this. The only way to be SURE that they will no longer collect income tax by by Constitutional amendment. Period. (Unless we let them later pass *another* amendment to reinstate it…)

      Don’t get me wrong; I WOULD LIKE to see our mess of a tax system reformed. I even liked the idea of this when I first heard it — but

      1) It is being sold as a 23% “inclusive” rate instead of the 30% added onto what you’re really paying for an item. This is disingenuous, which leads me to be highly skeptical of everything else in it. When you KNOW someone is misleading you, don’t you naturally want to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of what he’s trying to sell you before you buy it? I highly doubt that ANYONE fully understands all of the ramifications of this “Fair Tax” recommendation. All most of us really get is a dumbed-down version — and even those who know it by rote would need a crystal ball to know how all the ripple effects would affect the total take that the government would see in the final analysis. Protestations to the contrary, no economist, Ph.D. or otherwise, has said crystal ball.

      2) As much money as it claims to generate, some say it won’t be enough. (I am one of them, because of those liabilities that will soon start kicking in…) What happens then? Will they start taking 35%? 40%? 50% Or will they resort to my next point:

      3) It leaves the door open to reimplementation of income tax collection because it is NOT dependent upon repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution. Anyone who doesn’t believe Congress wouldn’t someday take advantage of this is too gullible for his own and his fellow citizens’ good and should tear up his voter’s registration card right now. Of course, Congress would start small (just 2% on income over $40,000, maybe…), but it would grow.

      The biggest problem we have is government SPENDING. People, we are giving away HALF of our hard work to fund GOVERNMENT. For what? Are you getting YOUR money’s worth? (If you are getting money from the government, your opinion doesn’t count.) Means-tested programs are a joke. Over a THIRD of our population takes our hard-earned tax dollars by way of these. Yet we are to believe the unemployment rate is a rosy 6%? Who’s lying? Government? People taking the money? You can be sure that it’s BOTH. With retirees, over HALF of the population collects money from the government. Yet people KEEP ELECTING politicians who promise to do more and more for their electorate. Folks, MORE costs MORE MONEY. Vote these liars out of office and vote for people who promise LESS. Then, if they follow through, you can afford to give a bit more to charities in order to help those who are TRULY in need. Private charities make a dollar go MUCH further than the government possibly can. There is so much mismanagement, waste, and outright THEFT in government, we ought to be focusing our energies more on how government is SPENDING our money (that’s right — it is OUR MONEY) than on how they collect it.

      Folks, this is a shell game. Even in this so-called “Fair Tax” proposal, you are being lied to. Time to quit watching the shells and pay more attention to what the game masters are doing.

      • Tim Brian

        when Republicans come up with a way to tax you and call it “Fair” – RUN!

  • FairTax Skeptic

    This was probably the most balanced article I’ve ever seen on the FairTax, so kudos for the author. However, she missed a number of problems inherent in the FairTax.

    1. The Rate. Virtually every independent study of the FairTax — including the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Brooking Institution, Rice University, and President Bush’s Tax Reform Commission — have concluded that the actual tax rate under the FairTax plan would need to be far higher than 30% in order to be revenue neutral. Most studies have concluded that the rate would probably be somewhere between 50% and 60%.

    2. State and Local Sales Taxes. Since the FairTax is a national sales tax, you would need to add state and local sales taxes on top of the FairTax rate. Moreover, since the FairTax imposes a huge new tax burden on state and local governments (because all government spending would now be taxed under the FairTax), the sales tax rates imposed by state and local government would necessarily increase. The bottom like is that state and local sales taxes would end up being somewhere between 10% and 20%, which would be on top of the FairTax rate.

    3. Sales of new goods would drop dramatically.. As the author has already noted, there would be a decrease in over-all spending. (Does anyone remember the 10% “luxury tax” imposed on the sale of yachts under the first Bush administration? The sale of new yachts dropped dramatically. Imagine what would happen with a sales tax of over 50%.) People would simply stop buying new cars and new homes. (Can you imagine paying over $100,000 in sales taxes for the privilege of buying a new home?) Instead, people would buy used cars and existing homes (both of which would be tax free) or just keep their current cars and houses..

    4. People would by more things abroad to avoid the FairTax. Purchases in other countries would not be subject to the FairTax. So you would see an increase in (a) foreign vacation travel, (b) buying luxury goods, such as diamond rings, Rolex watches, etc. while on foreign trips, (c) medical services purchased abroad, (d) more retirees going to live in Mexico and Central America. The bottom line is that much more money would be spent in other countries, and much less money spent in the US.

    5. Since business expenses would not be taxed, more personal spending would be shifted to “business” expenses. Although that happens today, under the FairTax system required record-keeping is supposed to dramatically curtailed if not eliminated, and profit becomes irrelevant for tax purposes, so it would be much more difficult to root out fraud and abuse.

    6. Under our current system, must income is subject to dual-reporting. That is, our employers, banks and brokerage firms must report our income to the government, which then checks it against the incomes we claim on our tax returns. Cheating under the dual reporting system is minimal. Most tax cheating occurs where there is not dual reporting. Under the FairTax, there is no dual reporting, so tax cheating will be that much more difficult to detect.

    7. As the author already pointed out, since the tax burden on the rich will be dramatically lowered under the FairTax system (since they tend to spend far less of their incomes than do the poor and the middle class), the result under the FairTax system would be to shift the tax burden to the middle class.

    8. For people who couldn’t avoid the FairTax by the methods described above, the result will be catastrophic. For example, all medical services would be taxed under the FairTax. Imagine being diagnosed with cancer and having to pay $100,000 in taxes on top of a $200,000 medical bill. Imagine older people being kicked out of nursing homes because they couldn’t come up with the FairTax on their stay.. How about people being unable to pay the FairTax on top of their heating bills in the winter, or on their health insurance, car insurance, rent payments, food, medicine, gasoline, etc.,etc. It would truly be a nightmare scenario.

    All of these problems are self-evident for anyone who actually spends a few minutes to look at the FairTax objectively, Unfortunately, far too many people have drunken the Kool-Aid and believe the hype about the FairTax, and corrupt politicians have jumped on the bandwagon as a way of pretending they are far tax reform when they know it’s a sham.

    • JPfrmME

      Unfortunately many of your arguments are based on questionable information. For example “Sales of new goods would drop dramatically” you quote the old 10% tax on luxury yachts as an example. The fallacy of this argument is that the 10% luxury tax resulted in a real and immediate increase of the cost of buying a new yacht. If the Fair Tax is implemented, the actual cost to manufacture a yacht will go down because the Fair Tax eliminates all income tax, corporate, personal or otherwise. We all know who pays the corporate in come tax; the consumer does because corporations, being in business to make a profit, add all their expenses, taxes included, to the cost of producing their product and pass it along to the buyer. Likewise the same applies to homes. So adding the 30% sales tax to these lowered prices will not produce the sticker shock that the 10% luxury tax produced.

  • Todd Hamilton

    I agree that this is a well written article. However, there are a few points I think were missed.

    1. States with income taxes base their tax off Federal Income Tax returns. They would necessarily need to change to a sales vs. (income tax) system.

    2. The current income tax system is regressive in ways even the author fails to acknowledge. Corporations pay taxes, but they add these costs to the price of their products. Products “Made in American” have (on average) a 23% hidden income tax that imports don’t have. The Fair Tax is designed to have a “zero” net impact on prices of American made products.

    3. The Income tax encourages jobs and capital to be kept off-shore. An income tax may have worked 100 years ago when we were an isolationist country, but not in the age of Globalization. The Fair Tax would eliminate this incentive. Companies would invest in American again instead of building out capacity overseas.

    4. The Fair Tax expands the tax base and will negatively affect some people…that much is true. Tax cheats, illegal aliens, criminals, etc. will all have a larger tax bill. Current tax payers will be able to control their tax expenses with their spending. Anyone that works extra hours or an extra job will be able to keep all they make. Taxing labor is a really bad idea.

    5. The biggest objection to the Fair Tax is the perception that it will be a windfall for the very rich. The fact is that all economic groups (poor, middle-class, and rich) all benefit from the Fair Tax. Most folks assume that the rich spend the same amount day-to-day as the poor or middle-class and that the difference is their windfall. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Rich spend considerably more than you or I and will be taxed accordingly. The percentage would be based on spending and different for everyone.

    6. Stimulus spending is far more efficient under the Fair Tax. Currently, when the Government tries to stimulate the economy, they pump liquidity into the system which is either absorbed into the stock market…making the Rich even richer or it’s spent on cheap imports and goes overseas. A stimulus under the Fair Tax (tax holiday) could be targeted towards specific sectors of the economy to produce the desired result here in this country.

    7. Transparency! Every citizen will understand the impact of increased government spending. Politicians wouldn’t be able to hide taxes. They wouldn’t be able to simply say, “Vote for me and I’ll tax those folks over there and give it to you.”.

    I can go on, but I think you get the point…the Fair Tax isn’t always “fairly portrayed”.

  • wolfdoctor

    “The fact that the rich spend less of their income is a wash, when compared to all the various deductions that they get and the legal tax shelters that they use, under the current system. ”
    Under the Fair Tax the VERY wealthy will be taxed at a MUCH LOWER rate. Calling it a wash simply means that either (1) you are a shill for the rich or (2) you haven’t done the math.

    • Tim Brian

      I really don’t want to vote something in that I know will hit me with more taxes in hopes of promises and “trickle down” from the rich.

      • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

        I guess you noticed that hasn’t worked in the past, huh?

  • blubal42

    Also at the end of the article she mentions she has a family of five. Who wouldn’t be against a system that doesn’t give you free money every year through the EICC.

    • terry1956

      Yep the federal EICC must be eliminated.
      Any prebate in the fair tax plan should be issued by state, county or local government.

  • terry1956

    Under the fair tax plans of course most Americans would come out better if you also take into account that used goods are not taxed, education spending is not taxed, gifts of money and used goods are not taxed

  • David Boone

    If you read the proposed act you will see it it is crafted with the utmost care, to the point most of us in the movement would not care to see it amended. Many people seem to think they can take a small piece of the puzzle and craft something better than HR25. It ain’t gonna happen.

    • terry1956

      I will read the bill more closely but I suspect when applied to many retail stores not incorporated the act would be unconstitutional in violating the direct tax clause in article 1 section.
      As most if not all of the current federal excise taxes do.
      On a corporation it would be a direct tax but on many small retailers it would be a direct tax not proportionally on the census.
      Now if the sales tax was 10% or less or maybe even as much as 15% its likely that would fit with the market value for just about all of retailers who are now incorporated to volunteer to stay incorporated so we could just apply the federal tax to just retail sales by corporations.
      Now maybe a 23% rate would be within the market value of that legal status, currently over 80% of the retail is by just a small percentage of retail outlets and likely just about of all those big boxes and Amazon etc are incorporated or a LLC and they very well may pay 23% of their cost in federal taxes when you include the income and payroll.
      Having the sales tax only on corporate retail
      would give Americans another way to vote if they did not agree with some of the actions of the federal government, voting with their wallet by moving some of their purchases from corporate retail to retail outlets that are not incorporated.
      Just having only a tax on corporate retail sales and imports would be a good way to vote on federal actions.
      Of course if you cut federal spending a lot, had a 20% import tax( or a 10% or less flat rate coupled with extras on imports from third world nations like Red China with lower rule of law cost) you could balance the federal budget with a 15% or less federal sales tax just on corporate sales to consumers.
      Every year the economy has real growth you could cut the sales tax rate and in 30 years or less it could be half .

  • David Boone

    Appreciate your willingness to engage, Terry. I would contend that the FairTax® fits the classical definition of an excise tax since it falls on the end user of the good or service. The act is consistent. If you use the good or service in the production of goods or services, it would not be taxable (business to business expense) Also a lot of folks miss the fact that Social Security and Medicare is fully funded by the proposed 23% rate. It breaks down roughly 15% general fund, 6% medicare, 2% medicaid. If you are in the 15% income tax bracket this puts you even counting your very regressive payroll tax.

    If Holly is still looking in, it might interest her to know that her family unit prebate allowance under the FairTax would be $836 a month for a married family. Now that it’s 2015 a COLA applies.

  • http://www.extra-cash-online.com/ Robert Connor

    That time again!

  • Mikeinthedirt

    Here’s the poison pill regardless of the regressiveness: IRS employs about 100,000 people; there are 700,000 PTINs (preparer tax identification numbers); there are 22 million businesses active

    • llcoolray3000

      Henry Ford put a lot of buggywhip manufacturers out of business, but we all benefited. No sense keeping a Marxist idea like our income tax code around to benefit those few when The FairTax would benefit all Americans (including those currently earning money off the existence of income taxes).

    • Greg

      Yes, lets continue punishing the hard working Americans just so the IRS can continue to employee those wonderful, pleasant, helpful people!

      • Chris Bowen

        under the fair tax the hardworking Americans will be punished more so the rich can pay less.

  • Mike

    Although I do see holes in the Fair Tax System and agreeing with the Pros & Cons you presented I have a problem with your comparison with your tax rate of 8.91% and the 23% Fair Tax System. That is like comparing apples & oranges. It is possible that your 8.91% of your taxable income could exceed the 23% sales tax.

  • Mike

    Reading your Pros & Cons of the Fair Tax System I feel more inclined to lean in favor of a flat tax on all income, earned and passive. Tax liability reductions could be included, mortgage on primary residence, education, business expenses etc. This would elimate buying overseas product to avoid sales tax.
    I have read studies on where a projection of 17 to 19% would be adequate.

    • rally2xs

      Flat tax on income as currently contrived is a gift to the rich. Why? Because they don’t abolish the payroll taxes. Payroll taxes total 15.3%, and then add 15% – 17%, depending on the proposal, and you have the middle class guy paying 30.3% – 32.3% of what he earns directly to Washington. But the payroll tax stops charging the rich at $118K or so, and that means that the very high income earner, such as $10M / yr, pays only 15.3% of $118K / yr in payroll taxes, and then just pays the 15% – 17% “flat” tax. That amounts to about 15% – 17% plus a very small few tenths of a percent for the payroll tax, while the middle class guy is still getting hammered for about 30%. IOW, the flat tax ain’t at all flat.

  • Greg

    The person who wrote this does not want it because they will pay more. This is better for the country. Some will pay more, some less, but all will pay FAIR! I don’t like being punished for working hard and making money and that is what an income tax is. I know many people who sit on their butts and draw every cent the can from tax paying working Americans justifying it by stating “I can’t afford to work, I make more money by not working”

    • Tim Brian

      life isn’t fair , sorry

    • Chris Bowen

      greg this is not better for the country in any way. It allows the rich, who most of dont work any harder than us middle class, to pay less taxes and us middle and lower classes to pay more. Chances are under the fair tax plan you will be paying way more tax.

      • Colin Valenta

        The prebate nullifies your argument.

        • Chris Bowen

          No it odes not. Under this tax there is a massive amount of things you are now taxed for. At 244 the prebate is enough to cover a $500 a month rent payment, but not anything else.

        • Colin Valenta

          The prebate guarantees that the rich pay a higher percentage of tax on goods than the poor. That’s the point I was making and I’d like you to try to prove that’s not true.

        • Chris Bowen

          They pay a higher % of tax on goods as a while but that is misleading. They pay an overall lower tax burden, as a percentage of income, and is lower than it would be now, because the rich do spend all of their income. This is by definition a regressive tax structure.

          The ultra poor’s tax burden stays the same, or goes up slightly, the middle classes tax burden goes up, the upper classes tax burden goes down.

        • Colin Valenta

          Money has to be spent eventually, who cares when you make it. By not taxing it as income we encourage more investment, which improves our economy overall. Besides, the definition of wealthy is measured by what people have, which means you have to buy things. The poor also buy more used products and since the prebate assumes you buy 100% of taxable goods you likely will have a negative tax rate even for those above the poverty line.

        • Colin Valenta

          The alternative is to tax the heck out of corporations because you think they’re evil and what you’ll get is more crony capitalism where the bigger corporations that can afford lobbyists and lawyers get the breaks. Lets take government out of the equation and it will be much more fair for everyone.

        • Chris Bowen

          So now you kick out the logical fallacies. I want to tax (not the heck but fairly) corporations because they use the resources of the country that we spend. It is not about “evil corporations” or “crony capitalism” and you cannot take the government out the equation they are still there even with this, and there is nothing for them to give certain products breaks over others so the entire argument fails.

        • Colin Valenta

          You’re saying there’s nothing that the government does to give breaks to certain products? Are you crazy? Look at Solyndra, GE, Tessla, all getting tax breaks to make renewable energy products more affordable. That’s manipulation of the free market plain and simple.

        • Chris Bowen

          I never stated any such thing. Nice strawman. I said there is nothing in the fair tax that prevents it. In fact by separating new and used items you are already showing it is not only possible, but probable that they will do it. Also companies will no longer get tax breaks, but what prevents them from just getting grants?

        • Colin Valenta

          I agree they can get BS grants. But grants are much more transparent than tax breaks.

        • Chris Bowen

          No, working in the education industry grants are less transparent. Tax breaks are written into the budget for certain groups, grants come from money given to a group who can dole it out and their whim.

        • Colin Valenta

          Grants are spending money already collected. Tax breaks simply is the absence of collecting taxes. When the public sees GE was given $100 million (just a made up number) of tax payer collected money to build windmills it’s more up front than saying we just won’t collect $100 million from them in the first place. Just my opinion there I guess.

          Bottom line the Fair Tax pits no one against each other. Everyone is in the same boat. No politician can play the game of stealing from the rich and giving to the poor just to buy votes. When there is one rate for everyone politicians will have to come up with damn good reasons for spending our money.

        • Chris Bowen

          Again not true. a tax break is just a reduced tax burden, it does not matter if taxes are collected, and then rebated back, or not. And you have to look deeper to see GE was given money. Where as a tax brake is written directly into the budget, or bill attacked to it, you have to look at the budget, then at all the departments funded by the budget to see what grants the department doled out.

          You may each pay the same tax rate (but not effective tax rate) but there is nothing stopping politicians from saying, well I really liked the home mortgage deduction, lets make new homes tax free as well, or new cars, or anything they want, or even revoking the tax free status on used products.

          There is also no new reason for justifications for spending the money.

          Lastly in switching to this you will see people lose and massive credit issues, or at least mortgage credits have not been addressed for current owners. Do their mortgages on new homes start being taxable, or not? How about their interest rates above the prime? These were not factors, and in fact deductions and MCCs were taken into account for income purposes when they bought their home. By switching to this type of program many people may not be able to afford their homes. I for example get way more money then the prebate in deductions and MCCs.

        • Colin Valenta

          Understanding embedded taxes that you are paying already answers a lot of your concerns.

        • Chris Bowen

          I already understand it, and no it does not answer ANY of my concerns. My effective tax rate would go up dramatically. Many middle and lower income peoples effective tax rates would go up. I am not talking about new mortgages on new homes, which you cannot guarantee would go down because of the lack of embedded taxes, I am talking about people with current mortgages whose banks evaluates the deductions and MCCs to determine eligibility. there is absolutely nothing that covers what happens in that case.

        • Colin Valenta

          You’re effective rate on your tax return is much different than your actual effective rate after you pay embedded taxes just FYI. If you didn’t build your home you’d have no tax, that’s a lot better than the mortgage deduction. Also the mortgage deduction is a huge tax break for the wealthy and does nothing for the poor by the way.

          There will certainly have to be some rules drawn up for the transition to the new system, but that shouldn’t be something that stops us from implementing the closest thing to perfect tax we can have for a tax revenue system.

        • Chris Bowen

          Wrong on all points. If it is a new home, regardless of if you built it yourself or not, you have to pay the tax. Secondly the deduction is more valuable for the lower and middle class than the wealthy. The wealthy do not finance their homes, they pay it, because why pay interest if you can afford not to.

          And at least with ebbeded taxes I know the true cost of making an item, it is not hidden, like it is with this system. There is nothing even close to perfect about the system, it is just another trickle down tax scheme, and trickle down has never been shown to work.

        • rally2xs

          The way you pay the tax on a new home you build yourself is that it is embedded in all the lumber, drywall, windows, roofing, etc. that you buy at RETAIL. if you have someone else build it, they’re buying that stuff at WHOLESALE, and it is therefore not taxed under the Fair Tax. If you have to pay someone else to build it for you, you also get to pay for the SERVICE of building it which goes to the workmen that do that for you.

          To come out the very best, you should buy your home’s components from American manufacturers. American manufacturer’s prices will fall from 11% – 18% from what they are now because of the repeal of the income taxes, which are costing them a lot of money right now, which they pass on to you, the customer. If their goods fall in price by just 11%, then that would be $89 for an item that was formerly $100, and you end up payine 30% on the $89, for a total of $115.70, for a 15.7% increase in the price, vs. a 30% increase in the price of you buy something manufactured in a foreign factory, which will not see a tax advantage from the income taxes going away, because they don’t pay US income taxes in the 1st place. The Fair Tax favors US industry, and the US worker. That’s just another reason to pass it.

        • Chris Bowen

          Again, you are stating opinions as facts. Point out where int he law it states prices have to fall.. Until then it is nothing more then belief of a tax policy that has failed every single time it has been implimented. And then tell me how they are going to make it so the thousands of CURRENT homeowners who bought their house with the current deductions counted in and would lose it under this system will be helped to prevent that from happening.

          The fair tax does not give a rats fark about US industry, or the US worker. The benefits will be seen my multi national corporations mostly.

        • rally2xs

          It doesn’t state it in the law, but the laws of how commerce works will ensure that it does.

          Repealing income taxes is a tax policy that succeeds, as witnessed by Florida and Texas, who have no income tax.

          Current homeowners will be helped by the Fair Tax by NOT having to pay income taxes and being able to refinance their mortgages for about 25% less interest.

          You’re talking out your butt now about FT helping multinational corps. You cannot show any reasoning for this and in fact the FT will cause an economic boom within the USA of biblical proportions.

        • Chris Bowen

          HAHA, florida and texas. The first is a tourist/retirement state, in which income tax would be worthless, since it makes most of its moneys from either out of state people or retirees, neither of which would pay income tax. Texas is oil rich, which is where it makes most of its money.

          So unless all states become tourist mecas or get oil rich somehow you are comparing apples and oranges…

          Both states have have a higher sales tax then the comparable states income taxes.

          You are, again, making assumptions you cannot backup. You cannot backup that rates would fall .25%, and no the laws of how commerce works will not make it so. You also do not take into account that many homeowners currently have rates more than .25% lower than the current interest rates.

          And you end with one massive assumption, something that you cannot prove again.

        • Daniel

          Why does this seem very difficult when it is straight forward. The quickest way to get out of poverty is to reduce spending. If you are poor you should spend less and save more. I have never seen anybody spend their way to riches. If we do it in third world countries, I do not see why the Poor should not learn to save. There is also the option of second hand things which does not kill. I own a hush puppy shoe that sells for $200 and I got it for $5. My rich friends ask how I afford such an expensive shoe. Lastly Rich people always spend more no matter how one looks at it so they would pay taxes. That is why no one gets tired of looking for money. The more you make the more you want to spend. I agree with you Colin taxing consumption is fairer than income tax and it is easy to administer.

        • rally2xs

          Corps can get grants under the Fair Tax. If you don’t like that, its time to talk to your congress person and state your opposition. If it is not in the public interest for that corporation to get public money, then you’ll probably have a lot of fellow citizens making similar contacts, and it will stop. But if it is a company that is on the very edge of providing us with cold fusion, then a dollar spent there may be well spent.

        • rally2xs

          They use the resources? They buy them, but anyway the more than make up for it by providing 1000’s and millions of people with jobs, Corporations are an economic weapon with which the US can dominate the world, if we just get the gov’t the H out of the way. Our way of life can be the most prosperous on the planet if we let it, and show the way for the rest of the world to do likewise for its populations and reduce human misery around the world. But we have to stop kicking US corporations in the teeth with taxes and regulations. If we don’t, our 47 million people in poverty will simply increase their numbers.

        • Chris Bowen

          Once again you state opinion as fact. It is your opinion that they make up for it. Actually if we use this tax the millions in poverty will increase. Trickle down is a scam. Our post prosperous years in this country were times when the rich were taxes way more than they are now, including corporations. I dont want your dystopia state of Kansas to become the rest of the country.

        • rally2xs

          Having trouble reading that one. Our “post prosperous” times? When were those? Today, I think, but I don’t think that’s what you meant. And it is YOUR opinion that the millions in poverty will increase under the Fair Tax, but tell me the logic of it. When 500 CEO’s say they’ll either build a factory here (400) or move their HQ’s here (100), that is new business in the USA and new jobs in the USA. How would employment go DOWN? You don’t make sense now.

        • Chris Bowen

          It is a fact that millions in poverty would increase based on the numbers. It is your opinion that millions would leave poverty based on some opinion of things you HOPE will happen based on little if any reality. You do realize you can have more employment, yet more people living in poverty right?

        • rally2xs

          Taxing corporations is a myth. No business or corporation ever has paid a penny of tax, and never will. Corps and businesses are legal fictions, and only humans pay taxes. What happens when you tax a business or a corporation is that the business or corporations simply raises the prices of its products, and/or lowers the wages of its workers, and/or witholds stock dividends that it would otherwise have distributed to stockholders, and instead sends those monies to the gov’t. But note that it is the customer, employee, and stockholder paying those taxes, not the corporation or business. Business taxes are just stealth taxes on the middle class.

        • rally2xs

          And no corporation ever pays taxes, ever, not in the past, not now, not in the future. Their customers, their employees, their stockholders all suffer thru higher prices, lower wages, and lower dividends in order for the corporation to be able to send money to the gov’t. Corporate taxes are stealth taxes on the middle class.

        • Chris Bowen

          No it does not. Look at all the “old” money people in the north east. When you accumulate that much wealth you have enough that you dont always have to spend it all, and typically you do not.

          also in order to get a negative tax rate you have to make below 9k a year as a single person. 9000+2569=11569-(11569*.77)=2660 taxes paid. This is well below the 11670 that is considered ultra poverty for a single person. It is much worse for a family that is larger than one.

        • Colin Valenta

          So if you spent all $11670 of your income as a single person on eligible items you would pay $0 in federal taxes because your prebate would equal your tax burden. However when you buy a used car or used clothing you pay no taxes. So you would actually have money left over from the prebate. That’s how you have a negative tax rate even above the poverty line.

        • Chris Bowen

          No, if you spent all of your 11670 on elegible items you would still pay $705.97 in taxes, (11670+2569-(total*.77))-2569, but on top of that the government is telling you that now you have to buy only used clothes and vehicles in order to makeup the differnce, and even then you really dont save anything.

        • Colin Valenta

          You’re adding the prebate to the overall income, in that case than the person would be living above the poverty line. It’s more straight forward than you’re making it. The prebate for singles would be $2684. If someone that has an income of $11670 (single person poverty line) purchased all taxable items their tax burden would be $2684. This equals the prebate, so the net is zero tax burden. It then becomes negative if you buy anything that is ineligible for the tax, which would be used goods and services.

        • Chris Bowen

          You have otherwise you did not calculate all the money and they will have left over money which they did not spend, which is not going to be the case, ever.

        • rally2xs

          You have odd math.

          If you make the poverty level wages, you will be getting the prebate from the gov’t at 23% of the poverty level distributed in 12 equal payments over the year. 23% of 11670 is $2,684.10, or 223.67 / month. If you spend 1/12th of your salary on new retail items for sale, which is atypical of those in poverty because they commonly buy used things, you would be spending 11670/12 = 972.50. 23% of 972.50 is $223.67, the exact amount you got from the government. So, in effect, the gov’t would be paying _all_ your Fair Tax, you would be paying $0 (like I said farther up the page.)

          Now, the great advantage of the Fair Tax is that when the income taxes go away, the payroll taxes, that are costing the person even in poverty 15.3% of what he or she earns, would go away completely. So, that person would have their income increase by about 15.3%. That’s a huge difference for the very poor.

          Question: What is more deadly than smoking? Ans: Living in poverty. It will take 7 – 10 years off your life. The Fair Tax will get people out of poverty, millions of them. We need to pass the Fair Tax.

        • Chris Bowen

          The math may seem “odd” but it is quite sound. The reason for the difference is that the fairtax is calculated and applied inclusively, but the rebate it not. Well it is calculated as inclusive , but it is applied as an exclusively, so you get approximately 7% difference in the stated value compared to the actual value. In order to give the poverty level person the stated benefit it would need to be a 30% rebate, not 23%.

          (11670 + 3501) – (total*.77) – 3501 = 3489.33.

          You have to compare apples and apples, not apples and oranges. In your calculation you are using the prebate as an exclusive tax, but you are using the inclusive tax value. You are making the same mistake as was previously discussed.

          Now you are adding in things you have no proof of happening. There is zero evidence that businesses will save that 15.3% tax savings on to their employees, and there is no part of the bill that says they have to. When it is stated in the bill then come and spout that nonsense. What is factual is that the poor and middle class will have their tax burdens increased so the wealthy and the cooperation can save money.

        • Steve Bergin

          Amen to that! Pass the Fair Tax Congress!

        • Chris Bowen

          Also buying used clothes and a 200 a month car payment would not make this go negative.

        • rally2xs

          You are completely wrong. The ultra poor, or in other words those in poverty, will pay exactly $0.00 Fair Tax. Currently, they pay 15.3% in payroll tax, so the Fair Tax will be a dramatic tax cut for those in poverty. Get your facts straight, and understand the Fair Tax.

          The middle class’s tax burden goes down, as they also no longer have to pay the 15.3% payroll tax, which is abolished under the Fair Tax, plus they also no longer have to pay any individual income taxes. I believe that Warren Buffet was saying he was paying 14% tax, but his secretary was paying 17%. Well, she was really paying 32.3%, because of the payroll tax.

          The upper classes’ tax burden goes up because of their egregious spending. They use loopholes like Mr. Buffet to achieve a 14% income tax rate, and the upper class doesn’t pay the payroll tax after $118K, but the Fair Tax is going to ad 30% to whatever they buy. They buy LOTS of stuff, and really expensive stuff. If Warren Buffet pays 14% of a $100,000,000 a year salary, that is $14,000,000. But if Warren Buffet buys a Gulfstream for $65,000,000, he’s going to be sending 30% more to the US Treasury, which is $19,500,000. That’s $5,500,000 more to the US Treasury than what he pays now. And buying a $65,000,000 Gulfstream is _NOT_ spending _ALL_ his paycheck. The rich tend to spend like there’s no tomorrow anyway, that’s the point of being rich.

          Oh, what if they “invest” and avoid a lot of tax. Well, that’s OK, because when they invest, the money will “trickle down” to the rest of us in the form of new factories where more and more of our population can have good manufacturing jobs, instead of poor retail jobs. That further benefits the middle class. Oh, in case someone told you that “trickle down doesn’t work”, well it is alive and well and working great right now. The only problem is that, because of the USA’s egregious income taxes that make doing business here almost prohibitively expensive, it all trickles down to places like Mexico and Canada and SE Asia and China and Russia. It does so not simply because their workforce will accept peanuts for salary, it trickles down there instead of here because doing things here makes little or no $$$ for the rich.

          The bottom line is that we absolutely, positively MUST get rid of the income taxes, all of them, because they are sabotaging US prosperity. President Kennedy said it best:

          “The largest single barrier to full employment of our manpower and resources and to a higher rate of economic growth is the unrealistically heavy drag of federal income taxes on private purchasing power, initiative and incentive.” John F. Kennedy, Jan. 24, 1963 ”

          Kill the income taxes, and have universal prosperity. Its that simple.

        • Chris Bowen

          Employees dont pay the payroll tax, businesses do. Doing away with that tax does not magically make peoples income go up by that margin.

          The poor and middle class tax burdens go up, because we do not pay the stated amount atm anyways. Between EIC, MCCs, other credits and deductions we pay much less than the stated amount. My tax rate was less than 20% on 56k last year. With this my tax rate would go up dramatically, because I will lose 3k in mortgage credits, mortgage deductions, student loan tax dedications, anad many more. The prebate does not even cover the MCC loss, meaning a massive increase in taxes for me.

          Upper classes tax burden goes goes down. Right now they are taxed on their entire income, under a national sales tax it will be based only on what they buy, and what they buy is dramatically less than there income.

          There is no such thing as trickle down. Invested money sits there, it does not trickle down unless it w as a poor investment. But thanks for verifying that this is just another failed attempt at trickle down, something never shown to have happened.

          Americans effective tax rate is low, but here is the thing, if they dont want to do business ehre then GTFO, that is the great thing about a capitalistic society, if they dont wanna do it someone else will.

          We dont have to get rid of income tax, that is an opinion, not a fact.

        • rally2xs

          Businesses pay the payroll tax? No, they do not. No business pays any tax, never has, never will. Businesses COLLECT taxes, by raising their prices, lowering their employees wages, and diminishing stock dividends, so they can send those monies to the gov’t to pay the tax. But make no mistake, PEOPLE pay those taxes, and the employee has his wages diminished by the amount of the payroll tax. The employee pays the tax.

          While you’re lamenting all those tax deductions, remember that you don’t have any withholding to do, and that the mortgage and student loan and so forth are not taxed under the Fair Tax, and the tuition you paid that caused the student loan would not have been taxed either under the Fair Tax. But you paid for it with money that was taxed by income tax, so you’re already screwed there.

          The burden under the Fair Tax is kicked up the line to the rich, because of their egregious spending. The poor, again, pay exactly $0.00, and those making a bit more than the poor have their effective Fair Tax reduced by the prebate that so benefits the poor. Make 2X the poverty rate, and your Fair Tax rate is 1/2 of the stated rate. Make 3X the poverty rate, and your Fair Tax is 2/3rds the stated rate. Make 4X the poverty rate, and your Fair Tax rate is 3/4 the stated Fair Tax rate. Then, as your wages go much beyond 4X, you’re starting to do a lot of things that aren’t taxed by the Fair Tax, either. People at 4X the rate are likely to buy an existing house, rather than building a new one. Existing houses aren’t taxed under the Fair Tax. Also you begin to contribute to retirement. That isn’t taxed under the Fair Tax either. So, you’re single, the poverty rate is $11K, you’re making $44K, and your house payment is, say, $500 / month. or $6K / yr. You don’t pay any Fair Tax on that 6 K. You don’t pay any Fair Tax on the first $11K either, so you don’t pay Fair Tax on $19K of your $44K earnings. But wait, you buy a used car for $12K, and your payments are $318 / Mo, or 3816 / yr. Now you’re only paying tax on the remainder, with $22,816 that you don’t pay Fair Tax on. Then you have to realize that both the payments on your house and the payments on your car have bank interest rates that are about 25% less than what they would have been under the income taxes, because the bank has less operating expenses too, and can charge less interest. And if the bank doesn’t lower their interest rate, some online loan place will, so you’ll get your 25% cut in interest rate. Then there’s other things you don’t pay tax on. Taxes added by your state at retail – sales taxes – you don’t pay taxes on those taxes, so there’s about 5% less tax for me here in Virginia on the new retail stuff I would be buying. But anyway, you’re making $44K, and buying about $23K of untaxed stuff, so you’re paying Fair Tax on $21K minus the 5% sales tax you don’t pay taxes on. Oh, wait, you’re making $44K, and you think you might want to retire someday, so you’re sending 10% of what you make to a savings plan like a 401K. That takes your $44K down to $39.6K, and you don’t pay any Fair Tax on the contributions to the 401K. Now we’re down to $39.6K – 23K so you’re only paying Fair Tax on $16.6K. Figure 30% tax on $16.6K, and that’s $4980. $4980. Your payroll tax on $44K would have been $6,732 before you paid a penny of actual individual income tax, so you’re saving money even if your 1040EZ said $0.00.

          And, just so’s I’m not here typing all afternoon, we DO have to get rid of the income taxes, because that’s the only way we are going to get our businesses back from Japan, SE Asia, China, Russia, Canada, and Mexico, where they all fled the income taxes in the 1st place. We absolutely have to get manufacturing back in the USA, or the economy is going to collapse at some point. The sooner we do it, the better off we’re going to be.

        • Chris Bowen

          You are attempting a philosophical statement, and trying to argue it as fact. FACT businesses pay tax. It is a line item on their expense sheet. If you w ant to argue the philosophical statement you need to realize it will not work out the way you want it to, it is a circular argument., because then you could argue I dont pay my bills, by employer does, which means the customer does, which means their employer does, and round and round we go.

          For mortgages you are being either misleading, or you dont know your own bill. Under the bill new mortgages on new homes are indeed taxed. It is only used homes that are not taxed. Giving you the benefit of the doubt I will assume you were just trying to be misleading. In any case it does not matter because it will still be a massive impact on every mortgage holder out there. It will raise the cost of my home by 150k over the course of the 30 year home if it was passed today. The poor again, paid an increased amount.

          Again you are being misleading. It only kicks it up to the rich if the rich spend = to their income, which has been stated repeatedly and you fail to address.

          Also all your statements are hypothetical. Show me where in the bill the bank rates HAVE to drop, or where the prices for goods HAVE to be reduced.

          Also you list companies you dont apparently know what their tax rates are on corporations. Japan for instance has an effective corporate tax rate of 36.64 % AFTER tehey just reduced it, that is more then double our effective tax rate. However a better way to get buisnesses here would be to invest in education instead of cutting it constantly.

        • rally2xs

          Businesses do NOT pay tax. Businesses COLLECT tax. Only entity that actually pays any tax is people.

          I did say used home are not taxed. New homes are taxed. Borrowing the money for paying for new homes is not taxed, just the purchase of the new home.

          Show your math on your $150K statement. I really don’t understand. You’d have to be buying a home for $500K to be paying $150K Fair Tax, which you would borrow the money to pay with money you made that was not taxed by income tax. I would have about $10K more in my pocket every year if there were no income tax, so it doesn’t hurt nearly as much as it might appear. Then, your mortgage interest rate would be 25% less than it otherwise would, so a $500K purchase would have a lower monthly payment because of the lower interest rate than it would under the income tax.

          And BTW, if you’re well-heeled enough to buy a $500K house, I’m not feelin’ for you all that much, you’re making large coin.

          Your mortgage deduction would be covered by the fact that your income isn’t taxed, and your take-home pay is much greater. IOW, you won’t NEED a mortgage deduction.

          No, you are wrong again. The rich don’t HAVE to spend their whole income to get taxed greater than they would under the income taxes. They avoid a WHALE of a lot of income tax, because they’re good at that. They know all the loopholes. Warren Buffet makes large coin, and pays 14% according to what he says. At 30% tax on new purchases, he’d only have to be spending 46.66% of what he’s making to equal the income tax bite he pays. Warren himself is fairly frugal, but there are legions of rich that live really high on the hog, as well as playboys with inherited money that don’t work and don’t have any income, for which the Fair Tax is 100% more than they are paying now, which is $0.

          The bill does not command that the prices drop on either retail items or mortgage rates, but the law of the marketplace cannot be broken, so If it is possible to sell at a lower price, SOMEONE will do it to capture greater market share, and everyone else in the market must follow suit or suffer losses in market penetration. Its why 2 gas stations across the street from each other both have gas for $2.13 a gallon. The one that has it for $2.15 will have an empty fueling bay while everyone goes over to the guy selling for $2.13. Its just how the market works.

          You want to compare Japan’s statutory corporate tax rate to our “effective” tax rate. You can’t do that. Japanese will not be paying 35% either, they also have an “effective” tax rate, and it will be proportional and they will still be less than we are. They are not the economic powerhouse that they were 30 years ago, because their bonehead gov’t had that excessive tax and their only ace in the hole WAS workers working for peanuts, but that is no more. Now they have to cut tax rates just to survive, and did. We have to cut tax rates to survive, too, but our best move would be to cut income tax rates to zero.

          A better way to get businesses here would be to pass the Fair Tax. Bill Archer, a former head of the House Ways and Means committee, commissioned a survey of 500 foreign CEO’s, and asked them what they would do if the USA passed the Fair Tax. 400 of the said that they would build their next factory in the USA, while 100 of them said that they would move their headquarters to the USA. It’s something like footnote 61 or 63 in the Fair Tax entry in Wikipedia, look it up.

          Meanwhile, education is a dead end if there aren’t any jobs that people can or want to do. There are a whale of a lot of people that are very capable working with their hands, but not so much if they’re supposed to run cholesterol test on urine samples in a lab. They can wire up or pipe up a factory as an electricial or a pipefitter, neither of those requiring college, and fix anything in the place once it is all put together. The great key to prosperity for millions of people are good jobs where you don’t have to go to college. Those are found in mines and factories and the like, things that have left the USA because of the damned income taxes.

        • Steve Bergin

          and unions!

        • Kim

          Rally, you are spot on! This countries economy would take off like a prairie fire with the Fair Tax!

        • Steve Bergin

          Hello Fair Tax Brotha! How come I don’t see more Fair Tax Club members on the other websites preaching this everyday? We are not going to get the word out if we are not on Yahoo and every other swinging blog/cite preaching the Fair Tax Gospel to all the sheep every day! So many have no clue what the Fair Tax is and we must educate our brother-man to stand with us and demand Congress pass it!

        • Bladen

          See my link above to Colin for your answers Chris.

    • rally2xs

      Greg, you are correct. This is a Fair Tax hit piece, not an accurate and balanced analysis of the pros and cons. It would probably get several Pinnochios from the Washington Post. The Fair Tax would lower taxes compared to what we have now on all economic classes EXCEPT the rich, who would pay more due to their egregious spending. They don’t have to spend _all_ their money paycheck-to-paycheck to pay more than they’re paying now because they pay so little with the income tax and all its loopholes, which they take great advantage of. The playboy rich that do not work, and therefore have no income, don’t pay any income tax at all right now, but they would under the Fair Tax with the purchase of every yacht, every airplane, and even every big-screen TV.

    • jon

      so if I complained that my taxes under the fair tax, was punishing me for working hard and making money…isn’t that the same gripe you just posted ?
      nor does you second point address fair tax versus tax status quo…at all…spending on social programs is not the topic

  • DeeAnalyst

    Con #5 is valid. The other Cons exist now & some are actually Pros. The evading issue is easier to do with out present system. Illegal immigrants would become tax paying illegal visitors.

    • iheartdagney

      Another pro is the fact that the poor would be paying some, too. THEY NEED TO HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME. If they don’t pay anything, they don’t pay attention to what our government is doing to the rest of us. Paying at the cash register makes the amount the government takes from each and every one of us more real. It will make everyone a better and more informed citizen. Something to be desired, no?

    • Ryan Gunn

      I mostly agree, but my permanent resident wife who has no interest in going through the process of obtaining American citizenship might disagree, due to only citizens getting the prebate.

      I actually agree with her. If I ever permanently moved to another country, I would have zero interest in changing my citizenship. I’m American, and proud of that. I understand why they excluded all non-citizens, but some consideration for permanent residents would be nice, since they’re only a step below citizens. If you’re here permanently and legally in every way, a small prebate doesn’t offer any incentive to citizenship.

      • David Roberson

        If it is a small prebate that doesn’t really give you any incentive to become a citizen then it doesn’t really provide any disincentive to living here, does it?

        • Ryan Gunn

          Not if you have a decent job, it wouldn’t. But since that replaces the income tax return, and she’s a hard working, decent earning permanent resident, it would seem unfair to take that benefit away from her, I guess?

          Things look different when there’s an alien in the family, I guess. Maybe it’s just the greedy side of me that nickels and dimes the tax return for every penny I can get back from them. :p

  • Scott Mooncatt Monroe

    Two inaccuracies about this article I wish to address. 1. The reason the Fair Tax is listed at 23% isn’t because it sounds better than 30%. It’s because listing it as an inclusive tax makes it a more direct comparison to the income and embedded taxes it’s replacing. In the end, it doesn’t matter which way you calculate it, so long as you understand the final price is the same and are expressing it properly. A $100 item today would still cost about the same under the Fair Tax, and arguably less when accounting for the prebate. 2. When you look at the embedded taxes currently in goods and services, the poor and middle classes are already paying a higher percentage of their income on taxes during consumption. So to remove those hidden taxes and replace them with one visible tax doesn’t change matters much. The biggest difference will be the prebate that offsets their tax burden. I think it’s misleading to compare the tax burden between the two systems in relation to income without also accounting for the embedded taxes under the current system.

  • Daniel

    It is simple, money is hidden from our tax system right now and being sent to other countries to gain interest never to be brought back here. If the fairtax was brought to us it would make our country a tax haven and all of this money could be brought home. In the trillions I’m sure.

    • lcuvillier

      Anywhere from 5-11 trillion

    • Steve Bergin

      Excellent point! What are we waiting for America? It ain’t gonna pass itself, we need to demand Congress pass it now! or forget reelection!

  • Daniel

    We are already paying the tax embedded in the cost of everything, the retailers keep it right now.

  • greg aldridge

    abolish the IRS 10 10 10 10 % FLAT TAX 10% FAIRTAX 10% NATIONAL SALES TAX
    AT 10% PERIOD

  • rally2xs

    The whole article is over-pessimistic. Thinking that the middle class is going to be harmed is, I think, not well thought out. The Fair Tax will produce an economic boom with spiraling wages as full employment is achieved, which will make the middle class far better off than it is today. Making it tougher on immigrants and foreign workers that come in and take American jobs while lowering the wage scale is a feature, not a problem. And the prebate will make the effective tax rate extremely low on much of the middle class up to where the middle class can actually be considered prosperous. Under prosperity, the middle class does a lot with its money that is not taxed under the Fair Tax. Some of these things are any contribution to a pension, a 401K, savings, investment, tuition, etc. etc. One doesn’t even pay Fair Tax on taxes added at retail, such as a state sales tax. The Fair Tax will come in at a much lower percentage for the middle class than is anticipated in this article for reasons that aren’t well considered in the article.

    • Chris

      well said

      • Kim

        agreed, well said

  • jon

    billions in compliance, is not really that much. I currently make over 6 figures and don’t pay a federal 23 % tax…the marginal tax is not the effective tax. And aren’t you worried about states raising their taxes when the federal dollars don’t come back to them ?
    Just saying, the law of unintended consequences is always in effect, and I would expect the new boss, to be about the same as the old boss.

    • lcuvillier

      The new boss would be you in how much tax you pay. You would be in control of your own money.

    • Bill Dorman

      the 23% rate covers the cost of the federal government in its current configuration and its current financial status. If a state is receiving fed dollars now, those same dollars will be available (should the state want them) under the Fair Tax. Also, there is reason to suspect that many (most?) states would also adopt a version of the Fair Tax for themselves…

    • jc

      If you make over 6 figures and use that level of reasoning, you should probably lock yourself in an office before someone realizes they’re paying you too much.

  • Asheville Total Tax Solutions

    Nice post! Thanks for trying to clarify a complicated issue. Hopefully this will help people gain a better understanding of the issues at hand.

  • Laura George

    Fair Tax would eliminate special interest groups and used items would not be taxed. This is the best deal out there for lower and middle classes. A lot better than what we have now. The poor could actually make money with the rebate. And get cops off everybody’s back. For example, Eric Garner would be alive today if we had had the Fair Tax. There are many advantages that far outweigh any disadvantages.

    • DwardFarquard

      The Garner connection is a tad of a stretch.

    • selfstarter

      Eric garner was charged with selling pre-taxed single cigarettes. That was a city tax, not part of the Federal cigarette tax…Cities are still allowed to enact local taxes even under the new “fair tax” scenario…..Nice try though, he was an entrepreneur and the Democrats turned him into a criminal.

  • Lyle Freddy

    Most people are unable to pay 23% out of pocket to purchase.I understand that you wouldn’t be paying federal tax but still would be a lot to put a 23% tax on everything The only way this fair act would work is going by income $10.000 to $30,000 pay tax of 15%, $30,000 to $50,000 16%, $50,000 to $70,000 17%, $70,000 to $90,000 18%, $90,000 to $110,000 19% $110,000 too $130,000 20% $130,000 to $150.000 21% $150,000 $170,000 22% $170,000 $250,000 23% $250,000 to $500,000 24% 500,000 to 1,000,000 25% $1,000,000 to $2,000,000 26% $2,000,000 to 5,000,000 27% 5,000,000 and up 30% and give out smaller rebates at the end of the year.Issued an ID card for income for proper taxing of people when they get to the counter to pay swipe a card just like a visa card that has your percentage you need to pay..i agree that the rich hasn’t not payed there fair share of federal tax.Its time to take out the loop hole so the rich can’t use them to pay less taxes then someone making $150,000 a year especially thous that r making millions of dollars.Its time for the millionaires to help support are country need to start carrying some of the load that the middle class has been supporting for years now.

    • jc

      You’re most likely already paying 23% tax due to income taxes and payroll taxes, without even counting the employers contribution. The only way you would pay the same amount with the FairTax is if you spent every penny you earn on non-necessities.

    • rally2xs

      Read it closely, it does exactly what you’re saying. That is, it charges an increasing tax rate with respect to people’s SPENDING. If you are in poverty and spend at the poverty level, the prebate will result in you paying $0, or 0% tax (in contrast to the income taxes, which will still charge you 15.3% in payroll taxes from the 1st dollar you make – they are very regressive.)

      If you make 2X the poverty level, you will pay 15% of what you spend as tax. Keep in mind that the prices of things made in the USA will likely fall by 11% – 18%, so the $10 item you were going to buy will now be priced at $8.90 max, and if you add an effective 15% to that, it is $10.23, or 2.3% more. If you make 3X the poverty rate, your effective rate, due to the prebate, will be 20%. Again, a $10 item will become a $8.90 item due to the removal of the manufacturing expenses at factories in the USA, and then 20% on top of that is $10.60. That’s a 6% increase in price, or a 6% effective tax. If you make 4X the poverty level, you’re going to be paying 22.5%, or for that $8.90 item, or $10.90, for a 9% tax. Remember that you’re getting your ENTIRE paycheck, not some amount of money that has a “withholding” taken out of it.

      We’re all going to pay less $$$ in taxes UNLESS we’re rich, and spending like there’s no tomorrow. Those people will pay more. We know lots of people that spend it all, don’t we? Micheal Jackson. Nick Cage. Evel Knievel. Most any lottery winner. People “spend it all” all the time, because they “know” that there’s a new paycheck coming next week. So when they get tossed out of somewhere for doing drugs or something, then they’re dead broke. Happens all the time.

      • selfstarter

        Not so sure about prices dropping 11-18% or even at all. What makes you think that the government won’t just re-evaluate (think:raise) the fair tax to compensate for the lower prices and then the company will be blamed for raising their prices since the tax is computed into the price no one will be able to see the “tax” increase.

        • rally2xs

          Why don’t they just raise the income taxes right now? Because… we’d all vote them out of office. Works the same with any tax – sure they _could_ raise the Fair Tax, but then they’d lose their jobs.

        • Guest

          Under the fair tax will there be a tax refund at the end of the year?

        • David Roberson

          Yearly, monthly, or weekly. The fair tax is negotiable. It is just a starting point. You would still be getting a refund of the taxes up to the poverty level.

        • Mary Richter

          If corporations no longer have to pay taxes the prices would drop and maybe salaries would go up.

      • Mary Richter

        and the rich will save money by not having to pay all those accountants and attorneys to find the loopholes

    • selfstarter

      Did you know that the top 1% who make the most of money, pay over 50% of the Federal taxes that support everyone else? Probably not. Did you know that Corporations pay 40% of the salaries of those in the middle and poor class? Probably not. Did you know that if Corporations paid lower or no Capital Investment taxes, the Country (USA) would be an economic power and Manufacturing giant that they used to be? Probably not. Our current tax system is nothing more than theft of income. To make matters worse, they spend our tax dollars like drunken sailors. We need tax reform and I’m all for trying something different to see if it improves our Country’s economy and our peoples way of life.

      • Steve Bergin

        Well stated, keep spreading that Fair Tax love across the country! The more we educate on it the sooner it will get enacted into law!

    • David Roberson

      You might want to actually read the fairtax thing. They refund people the money every month. People who make under the poverty level won’t be paying any taxes. It will still be a progressive tax system.

      Rich people always have and always will be the creator of jobs. The government will still be getting the same amount of money. Businesses will be easier able to compete against foreign countries since they will have the same taxes applied against their products. Currently, foreign companies products are only subject to the state tax. Under the fair tax they will have to pay the full range of taxes for the items. This equals out the playing field for businesses in America. This means that manufacturing would go down in cost compared to China. It would hurt China’s economy while boosting ours.

      Not having an income tax would make our items cheaper to export also. The cost of our government spending would not be put onto the cost of the product thus making our products cheaper to export. This would increase our exports while decreasing our imports. This means an increase in jobs and a overall increase in wages until it evens out at an elevated level.

      The important thing is getting the taxes applied to the end. We can certainly adjust how it works. You could even have weekly rebates to peoples accounts. It is simple and efficient. The important thing is destroying the giant mess of tax laws that make the system inoperable. Every single person is being taxed a different way in America.

      • Steve Bergin

        Agree 110% and will add it will destroy the IRS that operates using the fear principle and costs $11B/year to operate–big savings!

  • DwardFarquard

    This article is clearly written by someone looking for “cons” that don’t really exist or exaggerating those that do.

    Let’s put things in perspective. Compared to all other possible methods of gathering revenue to operate the federal govt the Fair Tax is the best by far.

    The biggest negative about the Fair Tax is the politicians won’t vote for it because it takes away the most often used method of paying back their donors and cronies…the U.S. T ax Code.

    • je032735

      One doesn’t need to look very hard to find nor exaggerate the cons of this plan. I used to think this plan was a viable option…until I started actually researching all of the details rather than just going by the talking points put out there by it’s supporters. It just so happens that I am in the middle of writing an essay for a college financial management course which began with a thesis statement of, The “Fair Tax”: A proposal that could address the major complaints of most U.S. taxpayers regarding our current tax system.” It didn’t take very long to realize that assertion is absolutely false, especially considering the number one complaint about the current system is that many corporations (64%) as well as wealthy Americans (61%) do NOT pay their fair share of taxes. That is according to a Pew Research Center study done in February of this year (article titled: 5 facts on how Americans view taxes). That isn’t the only area the “Fair Tax” falls short of being something that would address the major concerns of most Americans regarding taxes. So I began doing research with the idea that it could be a plan that would be a decent compromise for the differing sides of the tax issue and had planned on easily being able to point out to supporters of a more progressive tax system that the “Fair Tax” would ultimately be even better because of the theory (albeit misguided at the time) that those that earn more would obviously consume more products and more expensive products, thus meaning they would still be paying a higher amount of taxes. How long do you think it would take before wealthy individuals began finding and exploiting ways to avoid paying the sales tax? I doubt it would take very long if they didn’t already have things planned out. Getting rid of corporate taxes, no taxes on business to business transactions. How many CEOs and other top executives would purchase vehicles for their own personal use as a corporate investment, or even homes? You stated that, “The biggest negative about the Fair Tax is the politicians won’t vote for it because it takes away the most often used method of paying back their donors and cronies…the U.S. T ax Code.”. When in fact, the issue that needs to be addressed regarding that is the issue of campaign finance. No single donor, group of donors or corporate donors should be allowed to donate such large sums of money to anyone running for political office, that would make that individual feel as though they need to “pay back their donors or cronies”. Limit the amount that can be donated by any individual or group to a significantly small amount and prohibit corporate donations alltogether. Further, any politician once out of office or any family members of that politician should not be allowed to be hired by any major corporation during their term in office or a period of…let’s say 5-10 years after their term has ended. There are many ways politicians are bought and sold and put in positions to favor special interests. The tax code may be one of them but it isn’t the worst. Okay, I have to completely scrap my essay and start over since the “Fair Tax” doesn’t even come close to being a plan that most Americans would support once they learned all of the fine details.

      • DwardFarquard

        Well, it appears you started by looking at the Fair Tax objectively then let yourself be swayed by the opponents to the plan. It’s easy to let that happen.

        Can you propose a meaningful alternative that solves any of the issues better than the Fair Tax? Maybe it doesn’t have the support of the public (yet) because those in power don’t want to lose their positions of power and the Fair Tax takes at least one major tool they have away.

        Now, I agree with some of the non-tax related points you raise…such as no politician/family, etc. should be permitted to be hired, etc. But how does that work in a practical sense? It doesn’t.

        • je032735

          Actually, I didn’t begin looking at the plan objectively. I began with a thesis statement that the “Fair Tax” is a plan that may appeal to a majority of voters across political and ideological lines. So to start off with, I was pretty much in support of the plan. That was before I learned that it completely does away with corporate, capital gains and estate taxes in adition to personal income taxes. The main negtives I got from this article was regarding the tax being inclusive and the idea by supporters that the savings by business will result in lower prices. Call me cynical but I have about as much faith in companies passing any savings they enjoy on to consumers as I have in my ability to convince my 9 yr. old daughter to listen to good music. Overall, I just don’t believe the “Fair Tax’s” level of public support would not be determined by what politician says about it, if it was a plan that addressed the #1 complaint about our current system, which is that it favors corporations and the wealthy. My personal ideology aside, studies and polls show that is the complaint made by the largest % of the population. The “Fair Tax” actually favors corporations and the wealthy even more than the current system. So how do you expect to get a majority of citizens to support it? For this plan to get majority support, you’ll need to convince a lot of people that giving those who already have a majority of the wealth even more control over what they pay in taxes and try to push the old “trickle down” economics theory again.

        • Steve Bergin

          Give some examples of how the rich benefit more! The Fair Tax Advertises the rich get the short end of the stick because they like to purchase more NEW items, buying used is beneath them!

          I can agree to your concern about the Corporations passing on the savings but it will be done once the public gets pissed at Congress and they lean on the Corporations.

          If it doesn’t work we switch to a Flat Tax but last time I checked the present system we have now started out as a Flat tax.

        • je032735

          “Give some examples of how the rich benefit more!”

          1. Only the amount of income (excluding from capital gains/investments) spent is taxed. It’s a well known fact that as a percentage of their income, wealthy individuals/families spend far less than most middle-lower income individuals/families. Yes, only new items are taxed which gives everyone an opportunity to lessen their tax liability. it is probably safe to say that middle/lower income earners currently purchase more used goods than the “rich” but I have no doubt at all that if the “Fair Tax” were passed, those of means would have little problem either purchasing more used goods or what I believe is the more likely course, finding ways to categorize items as “used” in order to avoid the tax. Just like many executive compensation packages have been steadily moving towards less in cash salary and adding more compensation by way of investments/stock options which are taxed at the lower capital gains rate. For example, if someone wants to purchase an automobile, I don’t see it taking long before (probably before the plan would be enacted if passed) a way to “title” or show a vehicle as being previously titled, which is what makes a vehicle “used”, in as a way to avoid paying the tax. Would this be illegal? Yes, but that’s never stopped such things from happening before and I never underestimate the cleverness of crooks or the wealthy. Say, for arguments sake though that an “illegal” method is used. When talking about “the rich”, we are mostly referring to corporate executives, employees of large investment/banking firms, law firms, etc. So what’s to stop things like vehicles or even homes being offered as “compensation” or simply perks provided by employers just as other non-cash/income options are offered today as a way of lowering tax liability. If anyone thinks these assertions are so far fetched as to the amount of effort and resources that would be put into avoiding paying taxes, a simpler course of action many could take would simply be to purchase goods in other countries. Since our politicians sadly continue to support and push for more supposed “free trade” agreements at the expense of the average U.S. citizen and to the detriment of the U.S. economy, products can be imported from abroad without any tariffs or penalties. Just out of curiosity, since one of the “Fair Tax’s” main selling points is the abolition of the I.R.S. (which no one really likes regardless of political ideology), who or what agency will be responsible for investigating the inevitable fraud and tax evasion that will take place? State or local law enforcement? I see them being effective (he states in a sarcastic tone).

          2. Wealthy individuals who already enjoy tax rates well below what they should be paying due to the fact that they have little or no “income” and make the majority of their wealth through investments, would no longer have to pay any taxes on their capital gains. I’m sure Warren Buffet would love this aspect of the plan but no reasonable person would say it would be fair for Mr. Buffet to have his tax liability eliminated while middle-lower income earners would be paying more (as a percentage of their income mind you).

          3. There should be a limit to which individuals/families would receive the prebate. I fully understand the logic of the prebate being that no one pay taxes on necessities but above a certain income level (should be overall wealth level) they just don’t deserve any more breaks than they already receive.

          4. While it may not be a way the rich would benefit more, one of the most troublesome aspects of the “Fair Tax” plan is that the best way for anyone to lower their tax burden, is to spend less. My first thought is great, most Americans spend well beyond their means because they can rely on credit rather than addressing and forcing change to the fact that their earnings haven’t kept up with the inflated cost of living for decades. So in some aspects, I believe people should spend less. I would love to see the American consumer purchase less crap made overseas, give less money to corporations that left or moved a majority of their job creating activities overseas thanks to the lure of cheap labor (in some cases in China, free slave/prison and even child labor which are supposed to be illegal according to the W.T.O., yet no one dares challenge them), little to no safety or environmental regulations/costs & certainly no worker’s rights or labor laws to be concerned with. I’d love to see Americans give less money to companies like Walmart that is the single largest importer of foreign produced good in the the U.S. (I digress). However, the fact is the U.S. is no longer a nation of producers. It’s a nation of consumers with a majority of the dwindling jobs available are in either some sort of retail or service business. So while decreased spending would be admirable in many aspects, it’s effect on an already decimated job market could prove disastrous. Again, part of me doesn’t see that as a completely bad thing since it’s obvious that a majority of Americans will not react and demand change until the day comes when the economy is in virtual collapse. Like the saying goes, “Sometimes you have to tear something down to rebuild it and make it better.”

          I’ve already written way more than I intended. There are some aspects of the “Fair Tax” that I agree with or think are decent ideas but there are also other aspects that I do not believe would benefit a majority of Americans while benefiting others that, in my opinion, do not need any more than they already have. I know, “slippery slope” saying what you think others “should have” or what is “enough”. Call me a Communist, Socialist or whatever, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. I don’t care about names, political/economic principles or philosophies. The only thing that matters is their effect on the majority, good or bad. The fact is even if the U.S. did away with federal taxes altogether, it would have a minimal impact on jobs, income and wealth for the majority of citizens at best. None of the jobs already lost to emerging markets are coming back. The newest “free trade” agreement will only add to the loss of jobs and have a negative impact on average Americans. That coupled with technological advances will only decrease opportunites and the ability to be self sufficient. Corporations and those with the available means to invest in them will benefit from cheaper costs and higher earnings should expect and be prepared to face the financial, political and social costs of the results of their actions or leave.

        • dmiller64152

          The poor can’t buy used food to lessen their tax liability, and that’s where most of their income goes. Exempt food and add in the private (to cover housing and medical expenses) and it could work.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          Many wealthy people are certainly willing to purchase used multi-million dollar homes or expensive classic (also used) cars. So there are definitely big ticket items on which they would not incur a consumption tax. They will also have an incentive now to spend less and invest more. They are the ones that will have the most power to reduce their taxes by spending less, because a lower percentage of their income is spent on necessities.

          Do you believe everything the Fair Tax advertises? It’s dangerous not to question things and just buy into what you are told.

        • Mary Richter

          the biggest problem with fair tax is that the government would no longer be able to hide what taxes are paid

      • iheartdagney

        The highest income earners don’t pay their FAIR SHARE??? REALLY? These polled people you are talking about are either complete dupes, Marxist ideologues or……I don’t know……. STOOPID? The top 1% pay almost 50% of all federal income taxes. How is that NOT their fair share? Please stop repeating this Marxist blather.

        • je032735

          I figured it was only a matter of time before someone commented on the “stupidity”, gullability (your assertion that those polled must be “dupes”) or of course, the go to assertion for Conservative, Capitalist “ideologues”, that anyone who recognizes and points out even the possibility of ANY problems or issues with an idea they are pushing, MUST be a “Marxist”, Communist or Socialist.

          As an independent, I often come across individuals like yourself who throw around words like “Marxist”, Communist or Socialist as insults because you somehow feel that throwing out these labels automatically discredits any viewpoints that differ from your own. In my previous post, I merely referred to poll numbers which I had researched from several different sources and the results were all the same. The actual numbers may differ slightly but the facts are that yes, a majority of Americans support some type of change regarding the tax system, and yes, a majority of Americans feel the biggest problem with the current system is that it favors corporations and the wealthy.

          If you believe the “Fair Tax” plan is the best propasal that would benefit all Americans and you truly want to take advantage of the majority sentiment supporting change of the tax system (or code), I strongly suggest you work on some better talking points and arguments to support your position. Calling a majority of the country “stoopid”, “dupes” or “Marxist ideologues” may make you feel better but good luck at swaying majority opinion with that tactic. Also, ranting that any analysis of the plan that does not support every assertion made by it’s supporters couldn’t possibly be objective, doesn’t prove them wrong or yourself right.

          If you really want this plan to have a chance, I suggest you work on ways to prove, or at least sell it as a tax plan that does NOT favor corporations or the wealthy, because right or wrong, that’s what a majority of Americans want.

        • rally2xs

          What’s wrong with favoring corporations? Corporations are where the good jobs come from. We should favor corporationns until they build all their factories here and move all their factories that the are operating in foreign countries here. The Fair Tax will incentivize them into doing so.

        • je032735

          All the jobs lost as well as those that will be lost with the newest “free trade” agreement the T.P.P. are gone and will not come back, even if the U.S. did away with federal taxes altogether. There is so much more at play in regards to job losses in the U.S. than taxes. Short of reducing our economic and social standards down to the level of the emerging markets where those jobs have gone, major instability that results in major financial losses for the corporations that have moved operations to those places or least likely, those markets and governments reaching par with western markets and societies in regards to employee/worker rights, wages and benefits, safety costs, environmental costs, social and political standards, etc. Maybe then, if they no longer have significant benefit in regards to their costs and earnings compared to what they would have in the U.S., they MIGHT move some jobs back but more than likely, they would simply move on to some other part of the world they could exploit. Believing that lowering taxes or changing the tax system alone will bring jobs back to the U.S. is pure folly. It’s all about the numbers. All of the numbers and costs of a business, not simply taxes. The only significant action that could be taken to change the current situation is to make it more expensive to sell imported goods to U.S. consumers. Unfortunately politicians of both major parties continue to do the opposite and pursue more “free trade” agreements where not a single one has resulted in a benefit to average Americans.

        • Mary Richter

          and what about all the companies that want to hire from outside the country so they don’t have to pay SS, unemployment, or workers comp ins. and pay a lower salary than they would pay a resident

        • Lone Ranger

          No corporate tax is just stupid. Look at GE, which an army of Lawyers and Accountants have manage to pay zero federal taxes. However, the net profit of goods and products sold has dropped so dramatically that it has sold off huge chunks of it’s financial business because it sank them, while simultaneously destroying their ability to compete because it can’t create special fiance deals to bribe it’s customers.

          I assure you, GE won’t lower it’s prices one dime because it pays zero federal taxes. Instead, they will increase senior management pay and bonus’s even as their business fails.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          Do you know which came first? Did they not pay taxes and then they still failed to make a profit, or did they pay no taxes because they didn’t make a profit?

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          And if you are fortunate enough to have the funds to invest for retirement-YOU are one of the corporate owners. So, the benefit does circle back if you hold investments in corporations. You also benefit indirectly if you are lucky enough to have a pension plan since if the markets do well your pension is more likely to be funded.

        • David Roberson

          Who cares what benefits the most people? It isn’t about who benefits from what. It is about allowing people to be the captain of their own destiny. Fairness. Right and wrong. The benefits argument is an argument to take other peoples things. The government is there to protect peoples rights – not provide them benefits. The government is supposed to treat everyone equally. Rich, poor, black, white.

        • MiMg

          actually the government IS supposed to provide benefits for the Unemployed, for The Poor, for the Disabled, for the Elderly, etc

        • je032735

          The belief that it’s in a nations best interest to do everything in it’s power to ensure that the majority of it’s citizens have the opportunity to be fruitful and prosper is not about punishing some and rewarding others. The argument of “benefit” is not to “take other peoples things” and suggesting so is narrow minded. “Fairness. Right and wrong” as you stated without any context, are subjective ideas. What is “fair” to some, will certainly seem unfair to others. What is “right” in one view will be wrong in another and vice versa. It’s simply a matter of preserving and maintaining the interests of the nation as a whole. That is what our government and politicians are supposed to do. If not, then why have government at all? Why declare ourselves a nation-state at all if it isn’t in the pursuit of the best interest as a collective. I know, “collective”, one of those “bad words”. During our inception, was not stated that we are to have “a governement of the people, for the people and by the people”? That ideal seems to be completely lost. Most succinctly expressed by Milton Friedman and unfortunately with disastrous consequences for the U.S. economy is the idea that “a company should have no “social responsibility”
          to the public or society (or Nation) because its only concern is to increase
          profits for itself and for its shareholders”.
          It is this very type of economic concept and philosophy that led to such a significant amount of decent paying jobs in the U.S. which has been going on for decades, even during periods of lower taxes. Railing against taxes is an easy political argument but the real problems are a result of the U.S. entering into one way “free trade” agreements such as NAFTA, CAFTA, and most devastatingly, allowing China to join the W.T.O. which of course was wholly supported and pushed for by some of the nation’s largest corporations and employers with every intention of moving operations for to China before the President’s signature was dry, for the sake of lowering costs and increasing bottom lines and stock prices, regardless of the negative impacts on their communities and the nations’ economic health.
          To add insult to injury, most people that support ideas such as Friedmans’, still refuse to even acknowledge that it was that very sentiment that has landed the U.S. economy in the shape it is today. It’s a good political strategy though. focus on taxes, something that pretty much no one is fond of, rather than focusing on the real problems.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          I would like to add a couple points here. First, one could make the argument that taxing the wealthy at a higher income tax rate is fair because their wealth derives, in part, from the use and sometimes pollution of free public goods such as air and water. These are externalities not priced into their cost of doing business. They also benefit disproportionately from the infrastructure the government provides to protect and enable commerce.

          Second, if the disparity between incomes between the poor and the extremely wealthy continues to grow, the stability of our society will be threatened. I think we are seeing the start of this already. It is in the best interest of the wealthy to consider the desires and needs of the poor because by doing so they protect their own wealth from potentially disasterous civil unrest.

        • Jett Ward

          They don’t pay their fair share because if your percentage of 50% is correct. They have 90% of the wealth. People like to leave that fact out when defending the wealthy.

      • David Roberson

        Telling people they aren’t allowed to work is a very messed up idea. 5 or 10 years? That is the rest of most of their lives.

        As far as how much money you can spend/donate. They are limited to a relatively small amount of money given directly to a candidate. I can only give a modest sum to them. ($2700 for each election.) I’ve spent more money on that on single items in my various collections. I spend that money on things I enjoy or that I admire. How can the government tell me that I am limited on giving it to someone that I truly believe would make a difference in the world?

        There is no moral reason that you can give to limit what a person does with their labor. Those people who work hundreds of hours for a campaign, going door to door, and things of that nature. Those hours are money. You would never think to limit someone from working for a campaign for a thousand hours over the course of an election. You don’t consider holding a sign to be of value, but it is. That is $10k minimum. Money is the same thing. Money is essentially a paper form of labor. It represents labor that did of some sort. You are free to trade that for other people’s labor. When someone who makes $10 an hour pays a mechanic $100. They are giving them 10 hours of their labor in exchange for what the mechanic is doing. If someone is allowed to help in a campaign without limit then they should be allowed to trade their own labor in agreement that someone else does that laboring/campaigning for them. Every dollar that every person has. From the richest person in the country to the poorest represents someones labor. The money that gets put into the election then goes to pay someone else to work. What you and I do with our labor should be no one’s business but our own.

        Even with the tremendous amount of money poured in – the issue is still that the average person doesn’t have any idea what is happening and votes based on fear, anger, or another base emotion instead of understanding the issues at hand.

        I’m not sure why most of the population feels that you should have a license to drive, hunt, marriage, dogs. You have to take a test for hunting and driving. Can anyone really tell me that hunting or driving is really more dangerous than governments? Hundreds of millions of people in the last 100 years were murdered by their own governments because stupid people allowed it to happen and supported it.

        We need to put regulations on voting. People who can’t read have no business voting. If you don’t have any idea what you are voting on then you have no business voting. You should have to at least pass a test once in your lifetime proving that you understand the very basic concepts of the things you are voting on.

        • MiMg

          It’s YOU reTHUGlicans who should NOT be allowed to vote! You’re nothing but racist, homophobic, sexist, elitist bigots!

        • Steve

          For spending/donating money to campaigns he was probably referring to things like the koch brothers donating $900 million to push their views.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          This is funny! The FairTax says the federal government can’t determine what is a necessity in life and what is not because that gives them too much power….and yet you argue that people should have to pass a test to vote….who will determine the content of the test? Most likely the people in power. So we just skip the whole IRS scandal and move directly to an intelligence test where voters must prove they understand the concepts of the things they are voting on and the government decides what the questions and answers should be. It’s not much of a step to think only those who agree with the current policy makers and their supporters, who will buy influence with unlimited amounts of money, will be deemed intelligent enough to vote. That is a LOT more power than determining if food or medical care is a necessity, a task the state of Iowa has handled with very little controversy.

          Have you considered perhaps there is a reason people are afraid and angry?

          Your post actually made my day. Thank you.


          “There is no moral reason that you can give to limit what a person does with their labor.” This is the statement of someone without morals. Morals are knowing right from wrong.

          By your argument, it would be OK to maim, or kill you and your loved ones, if I earn as little as 1 cent, or the minimum wage. We should also prostitute your mother, sisters, and wife/girlfriend, and hell, you too, David Roberson, too, because “There is no moral reason that you can give to limit what a person does with their labor.”

          After, all, David, you think it is ok to fuck with others, until we do it to you.
          Here is my statement:

    • GQ4U

      I agree 100%.

  • GQ4U

    This article is filled with misconceptions and outright lies. It infers that the cost of goods & services will increase by 30% which is just not true; they will actually remain about the same or decrease. It intentionally fails to mention that business income taxes will also be zero which will further reduce the price of those goods an services.

    The current estimate is that goods and services will be lower by 25% on average and then the 23% “sales” tax will be added to that lower production cost. Using the $100 purchase scenario in thisarticle her is what really happens. The $100 item will fall to $75 then the 23% tax is calculated on that. The math is (1.23 X 75 = $92.25). That’s a $92.25 purchase price for an item currently costing $100 so consumers save $7.75 on the item. This savings is on top of the increased take home pay of approximately 12% to 35% depending on employment status and current income tax bracket. So we save money on purchases and have more money to make purchases with. This will encourage consumption not deter it.

    The author, Holly Mangan, also avoids addressing that “Excises-Taxes” (hidden sales taxes) by the federal government already exist on numerous items like cigarettes, gasoline, tires, etc. which are included in the items price and then double taxed in states that impose a state sales tax and these taxes are not deductible from your current income tax.

    This entire article is filled with half truths and lies and makes one wonder what agenda the author has for intentionally misleading to support the current tax system rather than the http://www.FairTax.org plan. The Internal Revenue Code is simply a form of
    financial slavery imposed on most Americans but the http://www.FairTax.org sets us free.

    We can control spending and thus the taxes paid but the current system comes after you even when hard times strike. plus most of us must spend money on tax preparation software or hire a professional (IRS certified) preparer.

    Nearly everyone fears the IRS, that’s why 85% of home owners never use the mortgage interest deduction, so Holly’s argument is moot on that issue, and and audit is expensive besides being frightening.

    Under the http://www.FairTax.org plan no one will ever have to file a federal income tax again or fear an audit by the private corporation known as the IRS. Under the http://www.FairTax.org plan only those collecting the tax could face an audit but at least these businesses will be compensated for their collection efforts. 39 states currently have sales taxes in place so retailers will simply keep the same records as they currently do but a portion collected will go to the US Treasury. Currently we send our taxes to the IRS corporation who then sends the money to the Treasury but they do so at great expense to us.

    There are many other misrepresentations and lies in Holly’s article, such as the Fairness of the Prebate and her maligning it as welfare for the rich. The impact on the rich is so small manyy may not bother applying for it every year. It however, will greatly benefit the poor and fixed incomers by paying them in advance for taxes on food and other necessities even though food costs will remain about the same. This is a win, win for those folks and all of us – period.

    Holly also fails to mention that an income tax free USA will bring home US dollars held overseas by US corporations and the rich, who are currently avoiding income taxes, and this spur investment by domestic and foreign businesses which will in turn create a massive number of new jobs. The current estimated growth is 10% increase
    in GDP for at least the first four years and beyond — following passage of the http://www.FairTax.org plan. Go study it for yourself and don’t listen to the naysayers who all seem to be feeding at the current federal trough. We don’t need to wallow with the political pigs and banksters any longer. See; http://www.FairTax.org plan now.

    • Steven Peeke

      Prices will actually be lower? Sounds too good to be true…because it is. Someone is spinning a fantasy. A fantasy where people spend less for the same stuff , get paid monthly checks by the government, and also this this system magically produces money while everything costs less and nobody pays anything.

    • Steve Bergin

      @GQ4U: Could not have said it better myself–thank you for educating America! In my situation I will have an extra $934.00/mo. in my pocket with the Fair Tax program. I estimate after paying the tax on New purchases only, I will have $300/month profit to put in savings and investments that the Fair Tax does not tax at all!

  • kitty

    The article reads like a paid political announcement.

    • je032735

      No more than articles written by supporters of the plan. At least this articles states advantages as well as possible disadvantages. The last two sections alone show a degree of objectivity, telling readers to do the calculations for their personal situations to try and determine whether the “Fair Tax” would be a benefit or not and to examine the facts of the plan themselves. That is exactly what everyone should do regarding any issue. Do the research and determine how it will affect their personal situation. If a majority of Americans ever decide that the “problem” is that corporations and the wealthy carry too much of the tax burden, then the “Fair Tax” plan will have a shot at becoming legislation.

      • Steve Bergin

        @JE: Good idea. In my case under the Fair Tax I will save $323 just from no taxes or deductions removed. Next, I will receive because I have a family of four $611/month in a prebate check to offset the 23% tax rate. So now I have an extra $934 in my bank account under the Fair Tax program. My monthly food bill is $800/mo with a 23% tax rate is $240/mo leaving me $694 to apply to other purchases. I think I can safely say I will profit from the Fair Tax with an extra $300/month to put in savings after all purchases are made because I will keep in mind the Fair Tax does not tax used items. Also, the Fair Tax does not tax investments or savings–this is a “no brainer” America–demand Congress pass the Fair Tax Act of 2015.

        • Tom

          You miscalculated. You took the amount in taxes as your food bill. Your monthly food bill is $800. With taxes is an extra $240. So your food bill will be $1040. Not $240. You will lose money.

        • Bruce Velocity

          So its what’s best for ME correct? In that case, I vote no. My nominal tax rate is 11.5%. It take me about four to five hours of running through a tax app to do my taxes…

        • Adakin Valorem

          BV, does your 11.5% include the 15.3% in FICA taxes that you currently pay? Or is it really that you pay 11.5% in INCOME taxes AND pay an additional 7.65% from your side and 7.65% from your employer’s side of the total wages paid to you? If that is the case, then the FairTax would abolish your 26.8% tax burden with a 23% tax deducted from your total spending ABOVE poverty level consumption. Of course you know that the sales tax on below poverty level spending is fully refunded to you via the Prebate feature, right?

          Right now, if you go out and buy a $100 item, you must first earn $136.60 in gross earnings before tax so as to TAKE HOME that $100.

          With the Fairtax, if you earned $136.60, you would still have $6.60 in your pocket because you took home ALL of your earnings and voluntarily chose to buy a $100 item with a 30% sales tax. (i.e. 23% of $130 is the tax portion of your purchase)

        • Bruce Velocity

          Self employed (LLC). That 11.5% is absolute total. And probably too low for what *I* get back in return.

          My comment was meant to be sarcastic. Its not what is BEST for me in the immediate, its what is BEST for the country, which in aggregate return, will be the best for ME.

          And, if I had Billions, under “FAIRTAX”, I’d just park my money…cause it wont be taxed. If I ‘Invest’ my money, i.e., buy a factory, then I’ll be taxed at a rate that makes the current nominal corporate rate look like a lemonade stand.

          I don’t think “FAIRTAX” folks really understand how the business world works. (Mostly from hearing things like “the wealthy pay TOO much money”. I’d believe that if we start invading countries to protect my e-Commerce Web Development business…or when the government writes a trade proposal that prevents developers in India and Croatia from under-cutting my rate by 70%, or…)

  • Anoise

    ” Currently, businesses must pay sales tax on the materials they use to create the goods they sell, ”
    This is false

    • M.A.Rue

      Unless they’re tax exempt, yes they do.

      • Cynthia Hanevy

        Actually, I was thinking of income tax in the below comment. In Iowa, businesses do not pay sales tax on materials used to create goods for resale. I can’t speak for all 50 states.

  • iheartdagney

    A lack of education, ignorance, or stupidity is the problem here. Corporations DO NOT pay taxes. If they cannot avoid the “corporate” taxes through loopholes, they just pass the amounts onto the consumers. THEY HAVE TO. Or, they wouldn’t stay in business! Duh. So, if a poll is saying that people want to fix the current tax system by taxing the businesses more, THEY ARE COMPLETELY STUPID.

    • GQ4U

      100% correct iheartdagney.

    • Munashiimaru

      Profits are taxed not the income needed to keep a company running… and if the corporation isn’t already squeezing as much as they can out of their consumers they’re failing as a corporation too aren’t they?

      • David Roberson

        The point was that when you raise the taxes on businesses, the common population ends up paying it anyway. Why not just show the consumer where their money is going to begin with? Why are we being taxed in 10 different ways when we can just do one that isn’t as complicated and move on with life?

        • Mary Richter

          Because government does not want us to know

    • Bruce Velocity

      Speaking of a lack of education…where did you attend business school? Corps CANNOT pass on tax hikes (or labor costs, or material costs) willing nilly. They can only charge what is perceived as ‘fair value’ to the consumer.

  • rally2xs

    What the author AND the commenters that I’ve read so far are completely missing is the promise of massive investment in this country due to the removal of the theft that are the income taxes from manufacturing. Bill Archer, former head of the House Ways and Means Committee, commissioned a survey of 500 foreign CEO’s and asked what they would do if America passed the Fair Tax. 400 of them said that they would build their next factory in the USA, while the remaining 100 said that they would move their corporate headquarters here.

    Fair Tax researchers stated that their research indicated that there would be a 10.5% boost in the GDP the 1st year, and full employment within 2 years.

    The tax Justice Network has estimated that there is 11 trillion dollars that are sequestered overseas for the express purpose of avoiding our egregious income taxes. That money could be expected to come flying back to the USA to invest where they could expect to be able to make the most money, which, due to not being taxed during manufacturing, would be American manufacturing.

    Simply put, America would wrest the title for manufacturing leader from China and use the free trade agreements that have been harming American prosperity for so long to pretty much beat the rest of the world to death, economically. It would be a massive takeover of economic power, and the USA would be at the top of the heap.

    Oh, and the poor illegal aliens that sneak into our country to take American jobs away from Americans having to actually PAY for that perk is a FEATURE, not a bug, as the software developers would say. But even the illegal aliens would not really much care, since, due to the skyrocketing wages resulting from full employment, so they would be making great money too, like everyone else. Its just that they would be contributing to the USA’s well being instead of leaching off it.

    • Bruce Velocity

      So much for saying what they would do verses doing it. The foreign tax holiday of 2004 did no such thing. I was mostly a excuse for companyie to cook their book some more.

  • M.A.Rue

    I prefer a flat tax based on income, not on what I buy. That is much more fair than a “fair tax.” But the IRS with its 60,000+ pages of rules, regulations & gobbledy-gook that nobody has ever read, not to mention their gestapo techniques, definitely needs to be gone….YESTERDAY!

    • David Roberson

      It is on purchases so that it doesn’t penalize investments/savings and it captures people who don’t pay federal taxes but spend money anyway. (Illegal immigrants, drug dealers, people who work off the books.)

      Also, it is a moral thing. You should pay taxes based on your usage of the system. It is a usage tax. Taxing everyone when they get paid is like taxing everyone for gas when they get paid. It doesn’t make any sense because everyone doesn’t use the same amount of gas.

      • Steve Bergin

        Who knows maybe those illegals might go back home because the taxes are too high! Sounds like a winner to me!

    • Steve Bergin

      @M.A.R: Unfortunately, the Flat tax system would still keep the IRS around to terrorize more Americans. Our current system started out as a Flat Tax and look what it evolved into because the Flat Tax system has room for deductions and exemptions in it–that’s where the problem lies! The Fair Tax is not designed to incorporate any deductions/exemptions. So if you really want the IRS to be closed down the Fair Tax is the way to go!

    • Fed up with the income tax

      as long as you have an income tax of any sort there will be the IRS to collect it and a government to distort it be it a flat income tax or what we have now. The Fair tax elliminates a reason for the IRS. Each state would collect the Fair tax and send it to the federal government that only need a small agency to recieve it.

    • Paulette McCoy

      M.A. Rue, I have to agree with you, it would be better to have a fair tax on wages, because that is how people pay into the social security. What will they do about that. Give people social security from sales tax. I think not. What gets me is my husband and I when we worked paid out the but in taxes. He had to pay self employment taxes. Now that we are both disabled and drawing our Social Security, they want to charge $23 or $ 30 dollars per hundred. That might not sound like much to someone. But lets say I spend $300 dollars on groceries a month that is going to be about another hundred for the tax. I always use to say when I was working, that I thought they should charge 10% on wages. If it was good enough for Jesus it should be good enough for uncle Sam.

  • David Roberson

    Do you realize that eliminating the income tax and putting the tax on the items that are sold would make Chinese products more expensive while having little to no effect on the cost of American products. It is essentially moving the taxes along the way to the very end. The fair tax, while not perfect, is at least fair. The American products would go down in price once the corporate taxes were removed from cost of doing business. Chinese companies aren’t paying these taxes anyway, so their prices would remain the same and then still have the 23% tax. Essentially, the fair tax taxes Chinese/foreign companies the same as American companies instead of giving them an unfair advantage due to not having to pay American taxes.

  • Liz D.

    You do understand that even though a corporation may pay some taxes to the government, no corporation really pays tax at all… The cost of any tax that they pay is pushed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, and to their employees in the form of lower pay and lower benefits. If you increase the taxes on corporations, they just pass that increased cost on to individuals. They are not hurt by higher corporate taxes…when all is said and done, we are the ones that are hurt.

    • Mary Richter

      YES, Just because it’s not on the receipt from the store does not mean you are not paying it.

    • Bruce Velocity

      No. No. No. No. And No.

      You have absolutely no grasp on how business works.

      By your logic, all a corporation has to do to make more money is raise their prices…man, your a genius. I’m going to go raise my prices by 10% tomorrow and be rich by the end of the month.

      Businesses don’t get a ‘pass’ on raising prices because their ‘tax’ goes up.

  • Kenneth Lowe

    Just reading HR-25 turns my stomach it is all about taxing every thing you buy or own. Why this is happening is the Federal government is on a spending spree and they can get enough from employment taxes, Medicare and social security taxes. Mainly because there policies have destroyed JOBs in America and if you have lost yours or the wages are at a stand still and cut by hour reductions to avoid health care cost by employers. THIS IS CRISS MANAGMENT! In acted by low brow politicians that think the Americans are to stupide to see what is happening. We need a new bill HR-101 NO NEW TAXES ON THE PUBLIC WITH OUT A NATIONAL VOTE!

    • Steve Bergin

      @KL: Slow down their whipersnaper the Fair Tax does not tax everything you buy because it specifically states it does not tax used items (i.e. cars and homes, etc.) One of the other benefits the author failed to mention is the Fair Tax will provide a much more stable tax base for Social Security and Medicare! The author also conveniently fails to mention the zero percent corporate tax rate that will draw our corporations and foreign ones back to the USA and create jobs! The Fair tax will also tax imports putting our exports on a more even playing field! $22M was spent on the Fair Tax system and it was endorsed by prominent economists and financial advisors! So, who do I want to believe guys like Dave Ramsey of Financial Peace fame and third best radio show in USA or some dingbat biased author payed off by the banksters to not let anyone close down their beloved IRS that collect our slave taxes for them?

      • Joel Corley

        So, if I understand your logic, if I buy a house from someone else, then I pay no taxes in the Fair Tax because it’s used. BUT if I buy a house that was just built, it’s got a hefty built in tax added in? Wouldn’t that put new construction at an extreme disadvantage?

        • Mary Richter

          and if you sell your used house for 500 thou you will not pay income tax on that

        • BLUE

          Not really, some people who can afford it may rather have a new house and dont mind paying the taxes.

  • Kenneth Lowe

    Americans would increase while the tax burden on the very rich would drop. According to the report, the percent of federal taxes paid by those earning from $15–$50,000 would rise from 3.6% to 6.7%, while the burden on those earning more than $200,000 would fall from 53.5% to 45.9%.[11] The report states, “Families with the top 10 percent of cash incomes would benefit substantially from the retail sales tax. Their tax burden would fall by 5.3 percentage points – from 70.8 percent to 65.5 percent. Middle-income Americans, however, would bear more of the federal tax burden. A typical married couple at the bottom 25th percentile of the income distribution earns $39,300 per year and would pay $5,625 dollars in federal taxes in 2006. Under the retail sales tax with a Prebate, the same family would pay $7,997 in net federal taxes after the Prebate of $6,694, resulting in a tax increase of $2,372, or 42 percent

  • Nontroversy

    Isn’t it crazy that in order to support our current system of government under a consumption-tax format, the tax rate would have to be 30% for every purchase?! I like my roads, emergency services, and military protection just as much as the next person, but I just don’t think taxation at that rate is a silver bullet that will automatically balance budgets and obliterate special interests. I’m curious what would happen during a recession/depression/natural disaster when spending (and subsequently, government receipts) plummets. What happens when citizens and government can’t spend money because they can’t get any? What happens if/when these “prebate” checks aren’t issued? I know I’m talking extremes here, but I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fair tax act.

    I don’t buy into the author’s belief that the wealthy still won’t pay ‘their fair share.’ While they might not pay as much of their disposable income in taxes, they do still have to eat and they certainly have much more buying power than your average citizen. Most might buy a house around $100,000 to $200,000, but a ‘rich’ person would probably be looking at houses in the $1million+ range. That’s where the fair tax act starts to live up to it’s ‘fair’ moniker.

    • Steve Bergin

      I’d say you can’t play the “what if” game if you want some success in life. The tax system we have now is beyond comprehensible–the IRS Director stated that himself. The IRS has morphed itself into a gestapo unit that terrorizes at will.

      It’s time for Fair Tax reform! The Flat tax opens the doors to grow the same incomprehensible program we have now by allowing deductions/exemptions! You can believe the rich will get them back with all their bribe money–no room for bribe money or exemptions/deductions with the Fair Tax! The Fair tax will end the IRS, the Flat Tax will not.

      If the Gov’t can figure out a way to give out Welfare, Social Security, Retirement checks on-time there is no reason to believe they couldn’t do it with Fair Tax Prebate checks!

      The Fair Tax plan is the end result of a $22M study with many economists, CPA’s and Financial advisors endorsing it. On those merits, it warrants serious consideration.

      • Nontroversy

        I’m with you, I’m just trying to understand what happens in a worse-case scenario. Currently, our government continues to borrow, borrow, borrow even when things are relatively stable. Would this new fair tax provide the right level of security for this country? Our system is screwed up now. I don’t know anyone who would openly disagree with that statement. I’m just a bit trepidacious when something sounds too good to be true. We have to ensure we’re not making changes just for the sake of making changes.

    • Cynthia Hanevy

      Only if they buy new construction. There will be no sales tax on a “used” home.

      • Nontroversy

        Why wouldn’t there be taxes on these used items? It’s still consumption. If transactions would still be processed the same way, why wouldn’t dealers still have to charge the tax on used vehicles?

        • Mary Richter

          It is a tax on all new goods and services. The 23% of the dollar spent will be included in the price of the new item not added on when you pay at the register.

      • BLUE

        IRS is a criminal enterprise and should be the biggest reason why we should all support the fairtax.

        Not only do the Irs take your money before you get it – if they feel you are cheating your taxes ,they can freeze your bank account, take your home or business all before you are even convicted of any crime…

        I rather get keep all the money I earn, when i earn it and decide from there how i want to spend it while taking taxes into consideration.

        As for the wealthy, they will continue to be wealthy regardless which tax system we use as they will always finds way to create income/wealth and manipulate systems to their benefit.

        Some poor people are frugal and some poor folks like to spend their monthly pay check on brand new gucci purses…

        It is no different from wealthy people, some wealthy people have the same used car they had when they were poor while some have a brand new car every couple months…

        Ultimately, tax on spending is fair from my perspective..

      • Fed up with the income tax

        The shear description of being wealthy is being able to buy anything you want and most wealthy people buy new products. The FAIR TAX stops penelization of people working to make more money. Our current tax system penelizes everybody that works hard and follows the rules. The more you make the more the government takes from you. This goes in line with the more you make the more you spend. What you havent taken into consideration is the broadening of the tax base. You say the poor are hurt more by the Fair Tax yet the other day I was standing in line to buy groceries while the lady in front of me was using her EBT card to buy her grocieries while talking on her brand new I Phone 6+ and carting them groceries out to her 2014 dodge challenger with expensive new rims and tinted widows. There are way more problems with the current income tax sytem than there seams to be in the Fair tax plan. Was that lady subsidizing her income with drug money or other under the counter money making deals, I dont know but if she could afford that car and that phone how am i still paying for her groceries. Those who are already rich have the ability to afford to pay someone to find every deduction they can get and end up lowering their tax liabilty to less than what the average american has to pay. The Fair tax makes it easier for small business to compete with larger ones driving the cost of products down. It may not be perfect but the income tax is way worse across the board as far as manipulating it. The Fair tax would reduce the shear amount of tax collectors by about 90% which would make enforcing it easier. There would be billions of dollars saved by that alone as well as the amount of money that is spent on compliance that we could save. the government spends more on collecting the income tax than what the bring in from it.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          I would like to know the source of your assertions like the government spending more collecting tax than it brings in. If a person can afford that lifestyle and is collecting welfare, they are committing some kind of fraud. Changing the tax code might cause them to pay more in taxes, but it doesn’t address the fraud.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          Most wealthy people buy new clothes and products like that, but many buy multi-million dollar used homes, particularly in areas that are expensive and exclusive where new construction may not be allowed. I would also expect them to consider the tax impact when considering new construction, which creates a further incentive to go with a pre-existing home.

  • Nontroversy

    Isn’t it crazy that in order to support our current system of government under a consumption-tax format, the tax rate would have to be 30% for every purchase?! I like my roads, emergency services, and military protection just as much as the next person, but I just don’t think taxation at that rate is a silver bullet that will automatically balance budgets and obliterate special interests. I’m curious what would happen during a recession/depression/natural disaster when spending (and subsequently, government receipts) plummets. What happens when citizens and government can’t spend money because they can’t get any? What happens if/when these “prebate” checks aren’t issued? I know I’m talking extremes here, but I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fair tax act.

    I don’t buy into the author’s belief that the wealthy still won’t pay ‘their fair share.’ While they might not pay as much of their disposable income in taxes, they do still have to eat and they certainly have much more buying power than your average citizen. Most might buy a house around $100,000 to $200,000, but a ‘rich’ person would probably be looking at houses in the $1million+ range. That’s where the fair tax act starts to live up to it’s ‘fair’ moniker.

  • Mary Richter

    I didn’t get past the part where she states that FairTax is not 23% but 30%. Fair tax is 23% of every dollar spent, not 23% of what you spend. That’s the discrepancy.

    • Adakin Valorem

      The discourse over 23% vs 30% is easily explained. Take a glass of water that is 2/3 full.

      If you add 50% MORE water, the glass is full.

      But if you pour out 33% of the water from that full glass, you are back to the original 2/3 full.

      Either way, it is still the same amount of water, only one is factored on an “inclusive” basis and the other is on an “exclusive” basis.

      Our current income tax system is measured Inclusively. One may say they are in the 18% tax bracket… which means they take home $82 for every $100 earned. But that same $18 is 22% of the net take home.

      One more zinger. When you are told that one is in the 18% tax bracket… what is NOT mentioned is that that person additionally pays 7.65% FICA taxes… and their employer must match that with another 7.65% for a total cost of $107.65 for every $100 earned by the worker.

      With the FairTax, that $107.65 can be paid directly to YOU since BOTH income taxes AND FICA taxes are abolished.

      • Mary Richter

        I get the whole concept. She just makes it sound like you would be paying more than you actually would be and confuses those who don’t understand the whole thing.I have been a FairTax supporter for many years. It would give us control of our own money and how we spend it.

  • Mary Richter

    I have been a Fair tax supporter for many years. One of the things that was explained to me is that we are already paying 23% of every dollar we spend on tax. Corporate taxes are added into every purchase we make. People scream that corporations don’t pay enough but don’t comprehend this. Think about it. People also say that retirees would not benefit from this as we already paid our income tax all those years that we worked. I am one of those retirees and I disagree. I still pay income tax in retirement. The naysayers are parroting the government. Fair tax would take control away from government.

    • Bruce Velocity

      No its not. If you pay a widget from Corp X, and Corp X get’s hit by a 10% tax increase, you don’t pay 10% more for the widget. Reason? Simply. Not enough people would buy the widget at +10% to make it profitable. (Same false argument on min. wage). Businesses charge what the Demand (customers) agrees as the value…customers don’t just give corporations ‘profit’.

  • jd

    Has anyone here actually read the book(s) or read HR25? We are paying the 23% NOW in taxes that are included in the product or service. It’s being passed on to the consumer in the price. Here’s the simple test – let’s say the Fair Tax is implemented and the 16 Amendment is abolished. Someone comes to you and says “let’s try and income tax and let congress decide the rules”. Would you say “sure”? The Fair Tax is the only thing that’s going to save our USA from destruction from within.

    • paul

      We are now paying 23% in taxes that are included in the product or service. The Fair Tax will eliminate that 23% tax, eliminate the income tax, and replace both with a 23% tax? The only result I see is elimination of the income tax to benefit those who earn the most and pay most of the income taxes.

  • Doug

    The author needs to do their math a little better. An inclusive tax on a $70 item would be $70 + 23% = $94.71. So the item would be priced $94.71, not $100. And the overall tax on the item is just 23%, not 30%. Math :)

    • Cynthia Hanevy

      The author’s math is correct. The example you have given is for an exclusive sales tax.

  • Broader Tax Base

    Here is a startling FACT: 78 Million Baby Boomers are entering retirement over the next 15 years. (Starting this year effectively.) Those 78 Million Baby Boomers will stop paying in taxes and social security or at least substantially reduce their earned/taxable income as they move into retirement. Along with that, most of them will be drawing off of the system. An average middle class employee pays in 6.5% of their wages to Social Security or about $3000 per year plus their employer matches that. The total is about $6000 per employee/per year into Social Security. That will shift to them receiving an average of around $1500 per month or $18,000 per year. This amounts to a $24,000 swing per retiree or quantified = $187.2 Billion dollars OUT of Social Security…just in Social Security Dollars per year. This does not include the Income Taxes that retirees will NOT be paying due to reduced income. That number has been estimated at nearly $600 Billion dollars Federal. In other words, the retiring Baby boomers will leave a budget gap of nearly $800 Billion Dollars on top of a nearly $Trillion Dollar deficit already ….and NO Americans have not reproduced at a rate that will make up the workers needed to replace all of them. The worker to recipient ratio for Social Security will drop from 3.2 currently to 2.1 people working for every person receiving social security….an unsustainable ratio. We simply must make some changes in our tax code…and simply trying to take more from the rich is not the answer. If it were, the government would be doing it. Higher taxes on the rich and corporations tends to slow the economy and as was already mentioned, when the economy slows, tax revenue declines as well….making our nations budget problems worse and putting welfare and social security programs at risk. I’m for the Fair Tax Act. We must broaden our tax base, according to the Joint Committee on Taxes the Average middle class family with up to $50,000 annual income receives more back than they pay in….Yeah, they are not only NOT paying federal tax, they are receiving tax while we have a massive over spending and debt problem The poor and middle class will have to pay some as well. They use all the same public services that the rich use and many the rich do not use at all, such as welfare. We are all going to have to pitch in.

    • dmiller64152

      I would be happy to see the “tax base” (euphemism for poor people) increased, do long as their wages go up too. The only increase in disposable income over the past thirty years has been in the form of tax relief.

  • dmiller64152

    Thank you. I live in Kansas, where businesses taxes were eliminated in favor of a consumption tax. Since then, the owner of the business where I work has not hired anyone or given raises but has purchased an expensive (foreign) vehicle and taken three trips overseas. Meanwhile, the sales tax on my groceries is at 11%. As a single mom, I’ve seen my personal taxes double. Kansas trails the rest of the country in wages and job creation. Watch out for the spin; corporate interests own this country already and you can be certain the politicians are doing what’s best for their wallets, not mine. American productivity has increased by 70% in the last thirty years but American workers habe seen none of that increase in their wages. Further increasing corporate profits and further encouraging the hoarding of money by the wealthy at the expense of those of us who must spend every penny to survive is not in the best interests of our economy over the long term.

    • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

      The promise of the fair tax is that the reduction in embedded taxes will offset the consumption tax so we will be paying about the same amount as we do now even after the tax is added. Are you saying that is not what happened in Kansas? I’d like to know how these theories worked out in the real world.

      • dmiller64152

        Cynthia, the politicians promised that eliminating taxes on businesses would provide huge economic growth. Three years later, we’re $50 million in the hole. School funding has been slashed, and the highway fund raided, and we lag behind the rest of the country by just about every measure. To make up for the losses, the governor increased the sales tax. I live near the state line so I go to Missouri to buy groceries (where I save $5 for every hundred I spend). The jobs created by this policy in Kansas seem to be on the Missouri side of the state line.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          Thank you for your response. I am sorry to hear that.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          I am really trying to become more educated on this bill, since all the supporters say its a no-brainer if you understand it. So far, I have found one thing I like, which is the treatment of education expenses. I have found yet another thing I hate, which is taxing my home mortgage interest. Also, they show the progressive nature of the tax assuming income=expenditure, when it’s pretty obvious that the wealthy are able to save a higher percentage of their income than the poor. Their FAQ chart showing the progressive nature of the tax also drops off somewhere around $100K to $150K. That’s more than I make, but in this society those folks are more upper middle class than wealthy. In some high cost areas, you can have trouble getting by on that income. Not here where I live, though :-)

        • dmiller64152

          I’m right where you are, living on a median income in a low cost city. Theoretically the Fair Tax Plan sounds like a good one, but businesses will use every advantage to increase their coffers. Prices will not go down … They didn’t go down when they offshored manufacturing. They just cut their production costs to the bone while keeping their prices the same. I actually saw an interview with Jeff Bezos of Amazon who claimed his company had never really turned a profit despite paying his employees minimum wage and basically abusing them. Thing is, he’s taken over $30 BILLION in salary, so no surprise there are no profits! I’m a saver anyway, and I could see myself just ending my spending rather than pay taxes on it. If everyone did that, consumption would grind to a halt and the government would not only be short on revenues but also companies would have no one to sell to. (I’m already doing that in Kansas to avoid paying 11%) You are probably better educated on this than I am; I’ve just seen the disastrous consequences in my state of a consumption based system.

        • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

          I just finished reading the bill. Reading the research on the site is enlightening. One article in the agriculture section mentions the elimination of tax incentives may encourage some companies to stop providing health coverage. That’s bad news for someone like me who just got over a bout with cancer. I can’t imagine what a plan would cost me on the open market. I also found out that a portion of interest paid on mortgages and other credit will be taxable. This puts a huge burden on people trying to pull themselves out of poverty, since they are more likely to have higher debt/income ratios and poor credit resulting in higher interest rates. For a used car, they may have to pay a premium price just to buy from a dealer that will finance the vehicle. It’s good the price of the car isn’t taxed, but what a triple whammy they get by paying tax on the interest. And yes, some these credit issues are their own fault if they failed to control their spending. But leaving within your means at poverty level is hard and poverty, like wealth, tends to get passed from generation to generation. It would be great if our educational system could do more to teach good financial management at a young age before kids learned the hard way.

          $30 billion is an incredible amount of money!

  • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

    Having read the act, I find myself with a couple questions. I see that retailers do not have to collect for items sold from vending machines if no single item sells for more than $10. I don’t see anything that indicates the items are exempt from tax though. Are citizens expected to track vending machine purchases and report this themselves? If so, how often will we have to report and will vending machines give receipts. I realize the financial impact of this is de minimus, but the record keeping would be a pain for me since I use vending machines a lot.

    I read somewhere on fairtax.org that the consumption tax could be used in the same way as income tax to manipulate economic incentives if for some reason it seemed necessary. I don’t see this in the act, but I don’t see it prohibited either. If this is possible, what is to prevent the FairTax act from acquiring loopholes and complexities similar to the income tax and thus becoming prone to manipulation by powerful political donors?

    In the “findings of Congress” section of the bill, it mentions family farms being sold due to the estate tax. Since the estate tax only applies to estates valued at over $5 million in 2015 (per irs.gov) and farm families have the opportunity to transfer property to their heirs through non-taxable gifts so that each donor (parent) may transfer up to $10,000 per year to each donee (child) free of tax, I question this finding. However, this is based only on my general knowledge and opinion. I would like to know how Congress arrived at this finding so I can reach a conclusion by reviewing the same facts they looked at.

    In reference to businesses I see that businesses must be profitable in two of the three last years to claim a credit for the inputs to this business. This seems fair enough, but won’t the business then still have the same compliance burden as they currently have for income tax purposes? They will still have to report enough info to determine whether or not they made a profit.

    • http://ExpressiveComputing.com/ Matthew Harris

      Most ‘family farms’ worth over 5 million use life insurance to pay the estate tax. If you take 20k divided by 5m, it would take 250 YEARS to transfer the entire estate using the non tax donation method.

      • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

        My point was that I doubt most family farms are worth $5 million and smaller farms pay no tax under todays code.

      • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

        I guess I wasn’t clear-I don’t think many farm families would have trouble getting down to the $5 million and avoiding the estate tax today. Farms over $5 million are more likely to be corporate farms IMO (I had trouble finding data on the average net value of a family farm.) Anyway, if a farm is owned by grandparents and has a net worth of $6 million, they only need to give away $1million to avoid the current estate tax. If they give $20K per year to each of 2 children, 2 spouses and 4 grandchildren, the remaining estate is below $5 Mil in 6-7 years.

    • Scott Mooncatt Monroe

      1) Vending machines should be no different then they are today. As with all retailers under the Fair Tax, the onus is on the them to remit tax collections to the government, and set the shelf price accordingly. If they don’t, you as the end consumer have nothing to worry about. If you think about it, vending machines already have applicable sales taxes built into the prices. Not sure about other places, but it’s common where I live in Wisconsin to see a sticker on the vending machine stating that the sales tax is included with the cost of the item. I don’t see the Fair Tax being any different, except to show the principle item cost plus the tax amount next to the E5 shelf sticker.

      2) Any tax code is subject to manipulation. Where the Fair Tax differs is its simplicity makes any change immediately noticeable to everyone. Unlike the current system that has multiple rates for both personal and business income taxes, exemptions all over the place, and the other taxes being replaced, the Fair Tax has one rate applied in one place. If government tries to grant tax favors to one entity under the Fair Tax, it both increases the complexity and causes the stated rate to increase. So it’s up to the general population to hold our elected officials feet to the fire. They can no longer meddle with it without the general population knowing, and voting them out. I guess this could be considered a down side for those that think government should be able to pick winners and losers, or just have zero desire to care how the country is ran.

      3) I don’t know enough about farming to speak on that issue.

      4) The compliance burden would still go down overall for businesses. The profitability determination would be based on record keeping the businesses should already have on file, so there wouldn’t be much additional to keep track of. After that, the only thing they have to track for tax purposes is sales. If they only serve other businesses, this is next to nothing. If they sell at the retail consumer level, they just have to keep track of the tax in much the same way they already track general sales taxes. They no longer have to keep track of profit and losses, employee withholding amounts, file complicated tax forms, or make business decisions based on their tax implications. Smart businesses will still keep track of their accounting numbers from a profitability standpoint, but they won’t have the added complexities of the current tax code.

  • Steve Williamson

    What about the people like myself that draw a social security disability check monthly? I’m not sure I fully understand if I still will receive one.

    • http://ExpressiveComputing.com/ Matthew Harris

      You would still receive your SSI, and on top of that a 200/m check from the SSA, to cover the sales tax for that month up to poverty level

    • Adakin Valorem

      SW, with the FairTax, every dime you spend on the sales tax charged for your basic necessities, up to poverty level of spending is fully refunded to you.

      You MUST consume MORE than poverty level before you have a net tax burden. The prebate feature is what refunds to you all of the sales tax on an assumed poverty level spending. In addition, the purchase of used goods, tuition and investments are NOT subject to the FairTax.

  • Ivan Berry

    And lest we forget, no sitting Congress is prohibited from amending, removing or otherwise altering legislation of a prior Congress. They can make changes faster than the public can follow.
    The Fair Tax, as explained, would likely distroy new auto purchases, increase restoration interprise in all types of products, from appliances to lawn mowers…further reducing major mfg. organizations within the U.S.
    The points in the article above are well thought out, and hint at the many faults in this plan. The more thought devoted to it just reveals more problems.
    And nothing about any of this addresses the real problem, our run-away excessive spending of government.

    • Ron Webb

      I disagree, because the embedded taxes would disapear the manufacturing cost would go down and the fair tax would be added at the point of sale, making the cost near the same as it would have been.

    • NoIRS

      Ivan – I too disagree. The reason people won’t just buy used things is for two reasons: 1. There is a limited number of “used” things and eventually we will run out – plus the cost of those “used” things will likely increase as they become harder to find. 2. People will have more money in their pockets and most people like new things better than used things.

      With respect to addressing runaway spending – you’re right – the bill does nothing to change how much we collect or spend. It’s intentionally revenue neutral because it’s not trying to solve that problem. Some people will argue that the government isn’t spending enough. The FairTax is just trying to change HOW we collect tax. It doesn’t dictate what that tax is used for EXCEPT for the percentage set aside to fully fund Social Security.

  • Adakin Valorem

    With an income tax… any income tax, flat or progressive… your money is SEIZED before you can feed your child or put a roof over her head.

    With the FairTax your money is YOURS to keep and spend as you choose, knowing up front what the tax would be on each of your purchases. As such, with the FairTax, your tax money is PAID.

    • Rusty

      I agree it would be nice to just pay for items that the government makes partial profit from versus having it taken. However, people focus too much on it being “fair”. Fair is a matter of perspective. It usually means “fair to me”. You can say it’s fair to tax people the same amount because it is “equal”. You can say it’s fair to tax the wealthy at a higher rate because they have more (wealthy would say they deserve to keep theirs since they worked for it). You can say it’s fair to tax the wealthy because they use more public service paid by tax dollars (i.e. larger share of property/assets to protect by gov’t/military, larger footprint on infrastructure, offsetting wage payments on gov’t wellfare of low income working class – i.e. wealthy keep more money since low operating costs can be maintained on their goods and services)

      The appeal of this tax is due in part to the instant gratification of it. The thought is that you get to keep all the money. If you lose it, it’s your fault. However, even after considering the prebate, you will still want to buy something and just lose that money or even more anyway. Think of it this way… you are offered a job with higher income several states over and you are overjoyed and take the job. Later you find out the cost of living is outrageous and you actually have less buying power now. The way the fair tax is explained now, it infers this doesn’t happen. The fair tax claims to remove a bunch of taxes and somehow generate all the revenue on a 30% sales tax meanwhile reducing the prices of retail items. I’m skeptical of this math. Reminds me of youtubers trying to build perpetual motion machines.

      • NoIRS

        Rusty – The reason the math works is with today’s income tax there is tremendous tax evasion. The black market economy – drug dealers, prostitution, organized crime, etc., is estimated to be between one and two trillion dollars. They report no income and therefore pay no tax. Under the FairTax they will pay tax when they buy things with that money. In addition the FairTax extends the tax base to tourism. Now I know you are thinking and other’s have said it – people will still cheat the sales tax. Yes – they will, but – 80% of sales are through national retail chains and they won’t cheat. So the cheating won’t make much of a difference. Also, it takes two sides to cheat the FairTax – the seller and buyer agree to cheat together. There are provisions in the bill to reward whistle blowing. Income tax takes only one side to cheat – just don’t report the income.

  • Nontroversy

    Thanks for the additional info. It seems like a pretty good plan. I can get on board with never having to fill out a tax return again!

    • http://www.mymoneyprof.com Cynthia Hanevy

      You’re welcome! It’s an interesting discussion, but I don’t think many of us are going to change our original beliefs. I have learned a lot by participating, though.

  • C. Alverson

    Who is to say, if and after this goes in effect, the government steps in and declares that 23% is not enough and raises to 34% or more?

    • Mr Moore

      Because it would be idealy passed as a law and this would requrier a higher vote to be changed

    • NoIRS

      Nothing will prevent Congress from passing laws – that’s what they do. However, with today’s ~80,000 pages of tax code and payroll tax and withholding very few people actually know what percentage tax they are paying and even fewer know how their tax liability will change when Congress passes a new tax code change. Under the FairTax the amount of tax paid – by law – must be shown on the receipt. 300 million plus will know exactly how much tax they are paying and if Congress is planning to pass a bill that will up that amount I’m sure the American people will notice and will weigh in.

      • damnitalready

        “Under the FairTax the amount of tax paid – by law – must be shown on the
        receipt. 300 million plus will know exactly how much tax they are

        The most important part of your reply… no one knows how much they pay in taxes right now, but come FairTax, it’ll be immediately apparent…

  • Rob H.

    I just want to say that you’re getting the 30% stuff because you’re doing the math wrong.

    That $100 dollar item would not have originally been $77 like you’re saying. It would have been about $81.30 before the FAIRtax.

    If you were to purchase an item that is $77 before the FAIRtax, you’d pay $94.71 at the register. (77 x 1.23) = 94.71.

    • damnitalready

      The 23% is inclusive. If you want to find the exclusive tax, it’s about 30%. So if you have an item at the store that costs $100, $23 would go to the state and $77 would go to the store.

      If the store wanted to figure out how much it has to charge a customer for this item it wants to get $77 for (after tax), then it has to use the 30% exclusive rate, $77 * 1.3 = $100.10 total cost to customer.

    • Andreas

      You have it wrong. The price you pay the merchant includes tax. So if you pay the merchant $100 total. He keeps $77 and gives $23 to the government. Paying $23 tax on $77 is just shy of 30%….

  • Ron Webb

    The wealthy will pay more because they have more to spend! Duh, I don’t think this guy has actually read Boortz’s book that explains the fair tax. All of his arguments for disadvantages are countered in the book, the actual cost of goods would remain near the same, so spending would not decrease, tax evasion is worse now than it could ever be under the fair tax, the fair tax would probably lead to the abolishment of state income taxes, and it would encourage immigrants to pursue citizenship. Finally, our current tax system is unfair, complicated, and involuntary, the fair tax, even if those disadvantages were true, would be better than what we have.

    • joepeh

      Besides that….. those folks who currently have income “off the books” such as prostitutes, drug dealers, numbers runners, etc. would be taxed just like you and me ….. when they USE their ill-gotten money to buy something!!!

  • dale

    Without an IRS system, and all, just how is the government suppose to know how much I earn and how much I have purchased?? truly believe ht instead of a once a year filing, we will then be required to do a monthly filing and if we misplace a receipt, and/or fail to file, for possibly good reason, we would not receive the refund on what was paid in for that month! Also, as it is common fact, that business’s already cheat/fudge their tax obligations, What could/would we expect anything different from them under this proposed system?? Also, who is to say, that after killing of the 16th Amendment, that bought and paid for politicians would not then Pass some even worse program that could/would place all the expenses of our Government on the backs of the middle classes??

    • Mr Moore

      The PREbate, I add emphasis on pre, is not based on income or spending. It is a flat amount based only the the number of people in the home. You would not need to turn in receipts. You would not even need to file. Only businesses would file.

    • NoIRS

      Dale – As an individual you would not be required to file any tax form. The pre-bate is not based on how much you earn or how much you spend – it’s based on your family structure. How many adults and children living at home and if they are in the US legally. You would have to apply for that on a yearly basis. Then you would receive your tax refund monthly based on your family structure and the current calculation of poverty level spending for that level. Current for a single adult it’s about $12,000 per year or $1,000 per month so a single adult would receive ~$230 per month as the rebate. No need to keep ANY receipts. With respect to businesses cheating – that’s true in spades of individual tax payers. There are about 120 million tax filers in the US today – far more than can be audited by the IRS. The FairTax would reduce the tax filers to only businesses and reduce that pool to about 12 million – much easier to audit. The responsibility for auditing would be on the state (I believe) and by the way the state receives a percentage of the tax as payment for collecting it so it’s a money maker for the state. (The author didn’t mention that…) With respect to the government passing another tax to replace the 16th Amendment – any Constitutional Amendment requires state ratification and is a difficult process so it’s not an easy thing to do.

    • damnitalready

      “Also, as it is common fact, that business’s already cheat/fudge their tax obligations”

      I think you’re confusing corporate tax (tax on the business earnings) and the sales tax they currently collect. Under the current tax system, businesses collect sales tax from purchasers and pass it along to the state. It’s pretty rare that a business tries to fudge/cheat this obligation, as the money is paid by customers and passed to the state. This is the system that Fairtax would continue to utilize.

      As for the other, corporate taxes, there would be no corporate taxes under Fairtax. They’re all eliminated, so corporations can feel free to bring that money home and use it for growth and jobs, and to make business decisions without concerns about tax implications.

      You may be thinking “whoa! no corporate taxes?! but they won’t pay their fair share!” – alas, if you consider it now, corporations don’t really pay taxes. Corporations pass the taxes onto the people (aka human beings) that deal with the corporation. For example, Walmart doesn’t pay taxes, the customers, employees, and investors pay taxes. Customers pay the taxes in the form of higher costs at the store, employees pay in the form of lower wages, and investors pay in the form of lower returns on their investments.

      The whole “Corporate tax” scheme is just a way for politicians to get more money out of you (yes, *YOU*) and have you thank them for it. They can come to the table and say “we need more money, but don’t worry, we won’t tax you, we’ll tax those evil corporations” and have the public cheer for it, not realizing that they’re (the very people cheering) going to pay those taxes.

      Anyways, without those taxes and the compliance costs on those taxes in the corporate pipeline, it’ll reduce the costs of goods as well. The FairTax studies have shown it’ll reduce the costs of goods by roughly 25%, which means the things you buy now, will cost the same after the change.

      For example, if a loaf of bread costs $1.00 today, that’s with all kinds of taxes built into the cost, from the farmer to the grain supplier, the bakery, all the other ingredients and businesses involved… all these business have tax overhead that will go away, reducing their costs, thus reducing the price of their goods, to the point of roughly 25%, so the bread will come down to about $0.75 for the loaf. Add on the 30% (exclusive rate) tax and you’re back to $0.98 for the loaf. The difference is, instead of buying that loaf with your after-tax paycheck now, you’re buying it with your gross wages.

      There’s a great book about the FairTax on amazon, just search for the fairtax book, it’s a quick, easy read.

  • vpaulsmithjr

    Holly, why did you title your article as though it was going to be a fair, neutral treatment of both sides? You clearly have a very strong opinion and it shows all the way through.

    You start off nicely with this:
    “To figure out where you stand on this high-profile issue, get the facts, weigh the pros and cons, and draw your own personal conclusions.”

    Then you progress to have many things like these:
    “what is most disturbing is how advocates present the plan.”

    “so the [FairTax] plan ‘sounds’ better.”
    “And this makes me wonder, what else are they spinning, ”
    “and why do they misrepresent a crucial aspect of their plan in the first place? ”
    “If the people vetting the tax plan don’t understand why it’s misleading to talk about an inclusive sales tax, then I “suspect other aspects of the plan will be misleading and possibly flawed as well.”

    “On the other hand, if the ruse is intentional (which seems like the rational explanation), what else are they trying to sneak past us, and why?”

    And for you to not understand the reasoning for indicating the tax percentage differently for inclusive and exclusive is sad. The math is ridiculous otherwise. With inclusive taxing, but giving a figure you suggest is somehow more honest, with less spin, then you have the following:
    I’m paying $100. What is the dollar amount that when I add that plus 23% of that value will give me 100? Seriously?
    What people will want to know is what percentage of that total dollar amount is tax. For the many countries that have used inclusive taxation for years, this is routine and is not considered being ‘dishonest’ or an attempt at spinning something.
    You are missing that while sure, the inclusive model lists a lower number for a tax rate, but it is starting from a higher price tag to begin with.
    The current system has the lame side affect of listing a ‘deceptively low’ figure, and then WHAM, they slap on a tax at the checkout. “But the rate is lower that the one used for the inclusive model,” you say. Why can’t we declare it as a spin tactic to justify fact that they are adding more to the cost that you were expecting? See it goes both ways.
    It’s all basic algebra. Go brush up on it.

    And you mention the elimination of deductions. The only reason they are needed is to offset the ridiculous tax levels we currently have. Look at it in reverse, coming from a hypothetical scenario where a country is about to start taxing their citizens. How does this sound: “We are going to tax the crap out of you…but we will provide for some great deductions!” Is the response: “Yay! Deductions! Bring on the taxes. We can’t wait for our deductions!” According to you, I’d say guess yes. Because the reverse is that when faced with the elimination of such a system, you are more upset at the loss of deductions that you are at the loss of the crapping system as a whole.

    This was a crapping article. And not because I disagree with it. Even if I did, I still cringe at the way you framed it as being a nice list of pros and cons, but then laced it with your biased viewpoint.

  • NoIRS

    Holly – You did a reasonable job of explaining the the benefits of the FairTax and then a hatchet job on the cons. Examples:

    “In explaining the plan, it seems that Fair Tax proponents call it a 23% tax so the plan sounds better. And this makes me wonder, what else are they spinning, and why do they misrepresent a crucial aspect of their plan in the first place? If the people vetting the tax plan don’t understand why it’s misleading to talk about an inclusive sales tax, then I suspect other aspects of the plan will be misleading and possibly flawed as well.”

    The reason it’s quoted as 23% is because the tax that it replaces is calculated the same way so they are comparing apples to apples – not to fool people as you suggest. Calling the tax rate 30% would be misrepresenting the true rate. If you are in a 25% income tax bracket, how much money do you have to earn to bring home $100? Answer: ~$133.00 – not $125.

    “Penalizing the Lower and Middle Income Class” – The prebate COMPLETELY untaxes those living at the poverty level and makes a much bigger difference to those living paycheck to paycheck than it would to wealthy individuals. The FairTax HELPS the 99% much more than the wealthy. The wealthy would benefit too, but frankly, I’m more concerned about helping the 99% and penalizing the wealthy.

    “Increasing Potential for Tax Evasion”

    No, for the following reasons:

    1. Unlike income tax, a sales tax takes two sides to cheat.
    2. You would have to cheat on larger items to have it really make a difference.
    3. 88% of sales transactions in the US are through major retailers such as WalMart, Target, Costco, etc. They won’t cheat and risk losing their business.
    4. Resellers would still have to file monthly sales reports and it would be easier for the government to review these reports than the current system.
    5. You would have to cheat on large items to make it worthwhile and it is more difficult to cheat on larger items.
    6. There is a provision on the Bill that allows the Dept of the Treasury to pay rewards to people who turn in cheats.
    7. No tax reform bill can completely eliminate cheating, there will always be cheating. We’re Americans, we cheat! Under the FairTax, the majority of tax revenue will be collected by the larger retailers, making the potential cheating relatively insignificant. If we can collect the anticipated tax revenue from the larger retailers, we will be doing better than the current system.
    8. Purchasing goods in other countries won’t work because you have to bring them back to the US where you will need to declare them to customs.

    “Decreasing Overall Spending”
    While the FairTax would encourage productivity and discourage spending, the fundamental question is – which is a more stable source of revenue for the government – taxing income or taxing consumption. The answer is taxing consumption:

    Revenue from consumption tax comes from three sources:
    • Dollars spent from income
    • Dollars spent from borrowing
    • Dollars spent from savings

    Revenue from income tax has ONE source: Income.

    Study from 1974 – 2004 showing tax base looking at Adjusted Gross Income and Personal Consumption Expenditures show PCE is positive throughout the entire period however tax revenue base DECREASED in 2000-2001 and 2001-2002 – two years in a row.

    “Eliminating Tax Deductions and Credits”
    You state that “Many people derive significant benefit from common personal tax deductions, such as the home mortgage interest deduction”. The bulk of people living in the US don’t own a home and therefore don’t get to take advantage of this deduction. The dependent child care credit and earned income tax credit is handled in a much more effective way through the prebate. A two adult, two children family of four living in the US could spend $31,860 under the FairTax completely tax free. Another way of looking at this is they would be getting a monthly prebate of $611 to cover taxes paid on essential spending. You also conveniently leave out that people will be bringing home more money in their paycheck.

    “Increasing Costs for Immigrants”
    People living in the US LEAGALLY would be able to apply for and receive the pre-bate. Those here illegally would not qualify. I think that’s fair.

    • damnitalready

      Well written response and clarification, thank you!

    • Kenneth Smith

      Very well stated, no IRS. Thank you!!

    • Stickyfrog ?justified

      Nicely done.

  • Steve

    Is the author’s math correct in that 23% of $100 is $77? Yeah, there’s no disputing that. But in her example the price AFTER tax was $100! Because the 23% is inclusive, the way in which she presents the taxation of this $100 item is quite deceiving and wrong. 23% of an ITEM plus the ITEM does not equal 30%!! Let’s break down the math here…
    Total = 0.23 x Base price of item + Base price of item…So let’s say Y is the Base price…$100 = 0.23Y + Y…
    Solve for Y…$100/Y = 0.23Y/Y + Y/Y >>> $100/Y = 0.23 + 1 (anything divided by itself = 1). Multiply both sides by Y and you get $100 = 1.23Y…Divide $100 by 1.23 and you get $81.30 = Y…The Base price of the item you paid 23% sales tax on was $81.30, not $77 as the author thinks!! So when she presents the 23% tax as actually being a 30% tax, she is wholly incorrect and is perpetuating a gross misunderstanding of the Fair Tax. For someone who supposedly has a background in finance, she either can’t calculate the actual price of goods very well or is trying to discredit the Fair Tax for reasons unknown.

    • Andreas

      You have it wrong. The price you pay the merchant includes tax. So if you pay the merchant $100 total. He keeps $77 and gives $23 to the government. Paying $23 tax on $77 is just shy of 30%.

      • bdirnbac

        So I’m a shop keeper and my wholesale cost for a shirt is $81.30. Don’t I have to add 23% to this ($18.70) to the price to get $100 for the cost to the customer? That’s how merchants calculate the final price now. And if I’m remitting my taxes collected to the state, don’t I send them $18.70?

        • Andreas

          No it’s inclusive. The merchant includes the tax in the marked price. So if the merchant collects $100 for the item he needs to give $23 for taxes to the government. So the cost of the item is $77 and $23 is for taxes. 23÷77*100= 29.87%

        • Ameathea

          You’re reading into it wrong. What’s being said is if the final cost of the item is $100, with the inclusive tax of 23% you end up with the base price of the item being 81.30 and the tax on said item being $18.70.
          If the base price of the item is $77 like in your example, then the final price on the tag and at the register would be 94.71. 77*.23=17.71, 17.71+77= 94.71. That’s what people are getting at. You can’t work backwards from the price unless you calculate the tax properly. In your case you’re assuming the base price is $77 instead of taking what would be 23% of the $100 and finding the base price of the item that way.

        • Andreas

          Obviously you don’t understand what inclusive means.

  • damnitalready

    You should go back and read the fairtax then reassess your negative points. The poor pay zero taxes. The middle class only pay taxes on their spending above the poverty line. It’s not a progressive tax.

    It removes tax deductions and credits because there’s nothing to deduct against. What are you going to claim against when you bring home 100% of your paycheck each week? There’s zero income tax to deduct against.

    The potential for fraud is lower, not higher, as it requires collusion to happen, as opposed to now where everyone cheats on their taxes, either willingly or unknowingly. You’d still pay taxes on imported new goods.

    The rest of your points against are already addressed many times over, check out the fairtax book.

    And you fail to mention the biggest bonus, jobs! Since companies no longer would have to restrict their decisions based on their tax implications. We’d be the new go to destination for companies as they flock to enjoy our no-corporate-tax status.

    Really, check out the fairtax book. Your points were addressed already, and a whole lot more.

    • DwardFarquard

      Gee, no corporate income taxes…and the economy goes up.

      If only we could get the politicians (and their special interests) to really understand that just about everyone wins with the Fair Tax.

  • Bradley Hill

    Another great point to the fair tax plan is individuals working for cash will now be paying taxes. This includes contractors, drug dealers, repairmen, and whoever else chooses to do cash jobs to save on the taxes. And the aurthor is a little out of touch with reality when she says the rich will pay less than the middle class. Smh

  • Stickyfrog ?justified

    I agree with other posters about the lack of accuracy in the con list. I find the biggest thing skeptics forget is that the end cost of new products will not change due to the Fair Tax. Another thing they forget is that when we go to a zero corporate tax we will be the lowest in the world. Corporations will be tripping over themselves to be here.

  • bdirnbac

    I don’t mean to carp about the math but if an item costs $100 at the store, you are not paying 30% but still paying 23% (assuming the fair tax is collected as sales taxes are now). If an item costs $81.30 in the store and I have to pay a 23% sales tax then I’m paying $18.70 as a sales tax and my final bill is $100. To find the untaxed value of the item you take the price and divide by 1.23. So $100/1.23 = $81.30.

    • Freedom rules

      Product cost 75
      Tax. 25
      Total. 100

      Nothing changes but the denominator:

      Tax exclusive rate:
      25/75 = 1/3 = 33%
      Current sales tax use this.

      Tax inclusive rate:
      25/100 = 1/4 = 25%
      Current income tax uses this.

      Either way the product price and tax remain the same.

      Since the FairTax is replacing the income tax it is better to compare them using the same method. Besides, 23% sounds better than 30%.

  • Thomas A Goenner

    What happens in states that haven’t any income tax because of big business already paying the bill?

    • Mark Ewer

      There are no states without tax. Under the Fair Tax you will not ever actually pay taxes. Instead, only businesses will pay taxes based on the sales they make.

  • Thomas A Goenner

    What happens in states like MS. that has no state tax on Social Security or Disability checks that pay just above poverty level now. Where we have to choose between Doc & Meds or getting a Good meal now and then?
    If I pay 10% now, but now have to pay this built in 23% ‘sales’ tax, wouldn’t my dollar be worth 6% less?
    23% – 7% current sales tax = 16%. 16% – 10% current fed. tax = 6% More tax out of each dollar. Means I’d pay about $108 more per month in tax.
    I struggle now. Can’t make more income because of disabilities. What necessity of life must I give up?

    • Mark Ewer

      You get the “prebate” check every month to increase your income. This will offset the tax burden you describe.

  • Freedom

    Hey Holly,
    Maybe you should examine The Fair Tax completely before attempting to trash it. It is called The Fair Tax because it is FAIR. Everyone has to contribute. You didn’t even touch on all of the people that currently work for cash and pay no taxes! Under the Fair Tax they will have to contribute like everyone else. I am tired of being in the ever decreasing pool of people that pay to keep this country going. You say things like ” the middle class will pay an even bigger portion of their income to taxes than the wealthy. Hello!, they do now, if they pay at all. Also, I am not wealthy by any means and I have to play a tax preparer several hundred dollars to prepare my returns and save them for 7 years because the IRS can come back and audit me, take my bank account house etc. if they say I owe, and we all know the IRS is not trust worthy. Also, the current system is so complex that 2 IRS agents given the same tax issue to work out will come to different conclusions. The current system is a mess and that is an understatement! Support The Fair Tax, eliminate the IRS, don’t pay anyone to do your taxes, get your entire paycheck and control your life!

  • Vikky

    I would contest the claim of the last point mentioned in the disadvantage section. “It could also deter highly educated foreign workers with great careers, such as doctors, engineers, and technology sector workers, from immigrating.”
    This claim is false. If Fair Tax becomes effective, then everyone – including these highly educated foreign workers – will take home 100% of the paycheck. Therefore, that would encourage immigrants with advanced skills, and deter the ones with low-skills.

  • Shaz

    You need to read BOTH books on this matter: The Fair Tax Book, and The Fair Tax:Answering the Critics, before you attempt tearing it apart. If you had read it, you will understand that the 23% you speak of, is not a tax that will be added on. It ALREADY exists in the price. It costs manufacturers/producers 23% just to comply with the existing tax codes. Therefore, when you buy a product that now costs $100, $77 is the actual cost of that product and $23 of it are costs passed on to the consumer to cover compliance costs at all levels of production. You are also paying $100 PLUS sales tax at the register. Under the Fair Tax, you still pay $100, but the $23 passed on to buyer goes directly to the government. You pay NO sales tax at the register. In effect, every person living in this country will be paying tax, even the illegals. The cost of goods and services remains unchanged, how it is distributed is the focus. Also, you have your full pay check, which will increase consumer spending. Refunds come back to you monthly for necessities, food, healthcare, etc., also meaning that those here illegally get NOTHING back, they just pay the tax. Much to complicated to explain here. Buy the books and read them. It makes perfect sense and would pull us out of debt almost immediately if we don’t use the enormous revenue generated by The Fair Tax to increase spending on pork.

  • Mark Ewer

    I think that you miss a fundamental point of the Fair Tax system. At the core, the Fair Tax is designed to be FAIR. It applies to all people in the same way. You say that you will loose your deductions but I say that someone else is being unfairly charged taxes to cover your deductions.

    You feel bad for people that are living paycheck-to-paycheck but (by your own admission) the current tax/economic systems encourage spending to keep people locked in that cycle. The Fair Tax will encourage people to save money and live within their means. If people have savings then the burden on Social Security becomes less (conservatives should love that) and if you live within your means then you naturally have a lower carbon footprint (liberals should love that).

    You say that the burden shifts to the middle class and that it will hurt them. But, it will also create lots of new jobs that are here in the USA. There was a survey of foreign fortune 500 companies in the Fair Tax book that shows almost all of them would launch new business development initiatives in the USA. Some would even pick up an move their whole operations to the US. More US jobs means less people in the worker pool so through normal supply and demand if the demand for workers goes up faster than the supply then wages for workers will increase (which means we can spend more so the Government collects more taxes).

    As it boils down, the two groups that is REALLY not happy with the Fair Tax are tax preparation companies and the lobbyist crowd. Sorry TuboTax, if the Fair Tax gets past you’re just hosed. As for lobbyists, it removes a substantial portion of the legislators ability to punish people or companies with taxes. Lobbyists won’t go away because legislators can still use government spending to benefit one company over another but they won’t be able to do it with the tax code anymore.

    • Keith

      A couple other points she missed. Used good would not be taxed. I know many lower income people who buy a lot of their clothes and household items at yard sales, consignment shops, and Craigslist. No taxes owed, and no issues or concerns by the seller with reporting anything to the IRS.

      Another one not mentioned in the advantages. In theory, prices should drop since corporations will no longer be paying taxes (not just income, but FICA, unemployment, etc.). So, while there may be a slight increase in the price of items from today, you will be taking home more money that should more than cover the increase.

      And the increasing costs for immigrants, since they won’t be eligible for the prebate. Really?!? That’s going to keep them from coming to the US? First of all, people are always complaining that they don’t pay their fair share, so they should like this. But I don’t think paying an extra hundred or two a month will keep them out. Not to mention if they are here for education or on a work visa, they are probably making more than most of us (or can afford to pay more).

      Also, I love how she points to her own situation and says she’ll pay more. Well of course you will! I’m in a similar situation as she is, but I think we should be paying more. Why should I get a tax break for buying a house, but someone who can’t afford a down payment not get one for renting?

      And then the last one – people will cheat more to try and get around it. Like they don’t already? It will be much easier for the IRS (or whatever it’s called) to track business sales (only new items) and taxes than the current system of trying to track every tax paying citizen. Do you think a small grocery store is willing to risk paying a stiff government fine to help you say $3.00 on your grocery bill?

  • betty7

    Let’s look at me as an example.

    My gross income in 2015 was $53,000. I own a home and have some student loan debt, so my tax liability came out to about $5,500. That’s an effective tax rate of a little over 10%. Now, under the fair tax plan, in order to ever pay the federal government $5,500, I’d have to spend over $18,000/year on… stuff. Not bills or debts. Stuff. Break that down. That’s roughly $1,500 a month on consumption. I certainly don’t have that kind of disposable income. I spend more like $500 a month on stuff, or $6,000 annually, meaning my tax liability on that stuff would be more like $1,800. That’s an effective tax rate of around 3.3%. My income is about as middle class as it gets, and my tax rate would be slashed by 2/3. Did I miss something, here? I’m not understanding how this burdens the middle class.

    How does the tax work on automobiles and houses when you are being financed for the purchase?

    • Rileyrocks678

      A Fair Tax is a consumption tax. So services are taxed as well, and loans aren’t considered buying something, so it isn’t usually considered a good or service. But when that loan money is used to buy something, that’s when the tax hits. Now for a car or home, that would be taxed as a good. So a house costs 100,000 no taxes, with a 10% sales tax that would be 110,000 excluding state sales tax since its a bought good. Same with a car.

  • Tarmangani

    Several things have been left out.
    – The tax is only applied to “new” items. A used car or clothes from the thrift shop are not taxed. Since the lower incomes are more likely to make these purchases it benefits them.
    – Businesses will not pay federal taxes. So their cost of doing business is reduced. Which brings the cost of goods and services down. They will still be hitting the profit margin they had before. This will nearly offset the sales tax.
    – Everybody is a taxpayer. Including the drug dealer, gangster, prostitute, people visiting on vacation. All those that might do business under the table.
    – With a 0% business tax businesses will all be coming back home. Plus businesses from other countries will be relocating here.
    – Finally, the trillions of dollars being stored offshore will come home to be invested since the profits are not taxed.

    The Fair Tax is much more attractive than this article presents.

  • https://plus.google.com/+JamieBrownMetalnun/about Jamie Brown

    I’d just like to comment on one statement in the article which I think is a common misconception (beyond the discussion of the Fair Tax): “Currently, our tax system is based on tax brackets: The more you make, the more you pay in taxes.” Nearly everyone believes this and I hardly ever hear it being challenged. In reality, however, this statement is ONLY true if you leave out Social Security Tax, which adds 7.6% for employees and 15.3% for “self-employed” or “independent contractors” (= de facto employees w/o benefits) and is only charged on income BELOW $118,000. And unlike income tax, which is calculated on your AGI (the figure AFTER standard deduction and personal exemption), SE tax is based on your net on Schedule C. So, an independent contractor making just $5000/year will pay 15.3% on that income! If a contractor manages to claw their way up out of poverty and get a foot in the barely-middle-class door, the 15% tax bracket, then they will pay 30.3% of their income. If you get into the next bracket, 25%, then total tax = 40.3%, which is MORE than the percentage paid by somebody making 10 times as much, and in fact, is a little higher than the highest tax bracket, (because remember, SS/SE tax does not apply to incomes above $118,000)! When we include Social Security and Self-Employment taxes, our tax structure actually places a disproportionate burden on the working poor and lower middle class, especially independent contractors and small business owners. With the Fair Tax, yes everything would cost more, but the prebate would help offset that and at least people could keep their whole paycheck and decide what they want to purchase.

  • Rileyrocks678

    About the unfair thing for Caifornians. If your poor or hate huge taxes in California, DONT LIVE THERE. THERE ARE 49 OTHER STATES TO LIVE IN.

  • David Crosby

    This is absolutely riddled with errors.